Transposing /concert pitch, Sounds wrong to me.. and drives me mad Options

[HanonMum]

A question for an accompanist....

I accompany my daughter (violin), the piano part for a piece she recently started has a clarinet (originally written for, I understand ) melody part written above the piano part!?! (Piano in the key of A, the melody line above s in the key of C, violin part in the key of A). What I "read" in the violin part above the piano part is not what I hear! I am so used to accompanying her on the violin, and I expect to hear her play what I see above the piano part. I find it very disconcerting, and very annoying. Actually, I am annoyed with the publisherS who did not produce a proper violin edition for for both violin and piano accompaniment parts.

I suppose this is a bit similar to when you accompany a transposing instrument. Do you find it as annoying as I am finding? Incidentally, I don't have a problem like this when I accompany her on the viola with alto clef. I cannot read alto clef, so I somehow block out what I see, but go with the "shape" of the viola line.

[Roseau]

I think it probably depends on what you are used to. A couple of years ago, my daughter had a piece in which the line in the piano part was for a violin and not a cello. This wasn't even a problem of transposition - just the wrong octave (and occasionally she went up when the violin went down) and that used to frustrate me. I also kept reading the instrument line in the bass clef, which of course did make it the wrong note. (And it's not that I can't read in the treble clef because I don't have the same problem accompanying my other daughter on the oboe - it is obviously a problem of the eye and the ear wanting the same thing).

As for transposing instruments, I think it depends. My daughter has accompanied a friend on the clarinet a couple of times, one of the pieces had the clarinet line written at pitch (ie the clarinettist couldn't have played from the piano part if she'd forgotten her own part) and the other had the line transposed for the clarinettist. Similarly my own cor anglais music sometimes has the cor anglais line in the piano part written in F and sometimes in C.

[linda.ff]

I think it probably depends on what you are used to. A couple of years ago, my daughter had a piece in which the line in the piano part was for a violin and not a cello. This wasn't even a problem of transposition - just the wrong octave (and occasionally she went up when the violin went down) and that used to frustrate me. I also kep t reading the instrument line in the bass clef, which of course did make it the wrong note. (And it's not that I can't read in the treble clef because I don't have the same problem accompanying my other daughter on the oboe - it is obviously a problem of the eye and the ear wanting the same thing).

As for transposing instruments, I think it depends. My daughter has accompanied a friend on the clarinet a couple of times, one of the pieces had the clarinet line written at pitch (ie the clarinettist couldn't have played from the piano part if she'd forgotten her own part) and the other had the line transposed for the clarinettist. Similarly my own cor anglais music sometimes has the cor anglais line in the piano part written in F and sometimes in C.

I have the feeling I've seen music in which the transposing solo part was written out twice. Obviously this makes it more expensive to produce in terms of paper, but it did acknowledge that the accompanist would sometimes want to refer to the instrument's pitch by name and sometimes maybe want to check the sound or even sing alng. Much more useful for a teacher, maybe. It might have been the Spohr songs for voice, clarinet and piano, where the singer would also benefit greatly from seeing the clarinet in her own key.

[Dulcet]

A question for an accompanist....

I accompany my daughter (violin), the piano part for a piece she recently started has a clarinet (originally written for, I understand ) melody part written above the piano part!?! (Piano in the key of A, the melody line above s in the key of C, violin part in the key of A). What I "read" in the violin part above the piano part is not what I hear! I am so used to accompanying her on the violin, and I expect to hear her play what I see above the piano part. I find it very disconcerting, and very annoying. Actually, I am annoyed with the publisherS who did not produce a proper violin edition for for both violin and piano accompaniment parts.

I suppose this is a bit similar to when you accompany a transposing instrument. Do you find it as annoying as I am finding? Incidentally, I don't have a problem like this when I accompany her on the viola with alto clef. I cannot read alto clef, so I somehow block out what I see, but go with the "shape" of the viola line.

I am interested as to why you're fazed by a clarinet part which is telling you the wrong notes but not by an alto clef part which (if you don't naturally read it) also seems to be telling you the wrong notes... it seems to be the same phenomenon to me! Can you apply the same technique of just going with the general shape to the clarinet music?

There isn't any consistency in this, by the way - IANAPianist but I do occasionally attempt to accompany my children and some trumpet accompaniments have the line written out in concert pitch and some in Bb. Never thought to check my clarinet music! I suspect it doesn't bother pianists who also play transposing instruments.

[fsharpminor]

Next Sat at Stalybridge I am accompanying a clarinet where I am playing in D flat, but the clarinet is in E flat, this is of course correct for a Bflat clarinet. But a tenor horn I am accompanying in A flat , has the solo part also printed in A flat, even though its a transposing instrument (Tenor Horn in Eflat) -- I assume this is to aid rehearsal.

[Deborah]

It works the other way too - although most solo parts will have piano cues transposed, some publishers will put them in at concert pitch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

When I'm accompanying, I find it useful to have the part ready-transposed - e.g. "Let's take from your G at bar 17" - but not so useful if I need to demonstrate how a passage should be - transposing down a tone on the fly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[sbhoa]

It works the other way too - although most solo parts will have piano cues transposed, some publishers will put them in at concert pitch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

When I'm accompanying, I find it useful to have the part ready-transposed - e.g. "Let's take from your G at bar 17" - but not so useful if I need to demonstrate how a passage should be - transposing down a tone on the fly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I prefer the clarinet part not written at concert pitch on a piano score. The tendency is to semi automatically do the transposition when needed so when it's been done for you it's odd.
Alto sax parts seem to be written at concert pitch though so if working with a student sax player you have to work out the transposition if you need to refer to a particular note.

[HanonMum]

I am interested as to why you're fazed by a clarinet part which is telling you the wrong notes but not by an alto clef part which (if you don't naturally read it) also seems to be telling you the wrong notes... it seems to be the same phenomenon to me!

I have been thinking hard....! I think it is to do with my early days training with piano, and a total lack of experiences with transposing instruments. To me, middle C written with treble clef must sound the concert pitch C, or it sounds very wrong to me. Whereas if viola music written with tenor clef is not treble clef note therefore I don't find it hard at all.

Can you apply the same technique of just going with the general shape to the clarinet music?

This seems to be the best I can do, I can follow the "shape". When I practise with my violin daughter and I hear a note out of tune, then I know where it is, but I have to say to her "the first note of the second beat of bar xxx", or I transpose the note to violin (concert)pitch.

I still don't like this piano music!!!! The publisher sells this as "for violin and piano", but they only supply transposed violin part , and the piano part is still with the original clarinet version. (and the violin version is more expensive!)


Thank you everyone for your comments. It's very interesting to hear your experiences and views.

[owainsutton]

I still don't like this piano music!!!! The publisher sells this as "for violin and piano", but they only supply transposed violin part , and the piano part is still with the original clarinet version. (and the violin version is more expensive!)

It's not great, I have to agree! (What's the piece and the publisher?)

My advice, however, is to look on it as a learning experience. Should you find yourself accompanying a transposing instrument at any point, you're going to be dealing with this same issue, and only practice will breed familiarity.

Those people who've encoutered transposing parts which are written at concert pitch in the piano part, are these American publications, by any chance? I was under the impression that score-in-C was a more common convention there than in Europe.

[HanonMum]

I still don't like this piano music!!!! The publisher sells this as "for violin and piano", but they only supply transposed violin part , and the piano part is still with the original clarinet version. (and the violin version is more expensive!)

It's not great, I have to agree! (What's the piece and the publisher?)

My advice, however, is to look on it as a learning experience. Should you find yourself accompanying a transposing instrument at any point, you're going to be dealing with this same issue, and only practice will breed familiarity.

Quite! Positive atttitude here. Seriously, though, it is real good practice. It is violin G8 B6 piece, Schumann OP73 for violin. You can get it from two publishers, and both supply piano accompaniment part with clarinet part, and violin part. Maybe I can cross out the treble clef from the clarinet part, then clef-less music would stop annoying me...

[Dulcet]

I still don't like this piano music!!!! The publisher sells this as "for violin and piano", but they only supply transposed violin part , and the piano part is still with the original clarinet version. (and the violin version is more expensive!)

It's not great, I have to agree! (What's the piece and the publisher?)

My advice, however, is to look on it as a learning experience. Should you find yourself accompanying a transposing instrument at any point, you're going to be dealing with this same issue, and only practice will breed familiarity.

Quite! Positive atttitude here. Seriously, though, it is real good practice. It is violin G8 B6 piece, Schumann OP73 for violin. You can get it from two publishers, and both supply piano accompaniment part with clarinet part, and violin part. Maybe I can cross out the treble clef from the clarinet part, then clef-less music would stop annoying me...

PAH! should only be played on clarinet or cello anyway...

(sorry!)

[Splog]

Just re-read all of this. You have bought a piece of music which claims to be for violin and piano, yet the piano part does not have the violin melody above the piano part. It has the same melody in another key for a different instrument? That sounds like a fairly major publishing error to me. No wonder you are getting annoyed with it. I would complain to the publishers.

My accompanist has perfect pitch and we sometimes transpose on the electric piano if I need the song in a different key. Really quite amusing sometimes to watch her cringe when she knows that what she is hearing isn't what she is playing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[Roseau]

Just re-read all of this. You have bought a piece of music which claims to be for violin and piano, yet the piano part does not have the violin melody above the piano part. It has the same melody in another key for a different instrument? That sounds like a fairly major publishing error to me. No wonder you are getting annoyed with it. I would complain to the publishers.

Actually publishers do this a lot for the "less popular" instruments. What is surprising is that they have done it for the violin.

[Splog]

Just re-read all of this. You have bought a piece of music which claims to be for violin and piano, yet the piano part does not have the violin melody above the piano part. It has the same melody in another key for a different instrument? That sounds like a fairly major publishing error to me. No wonder you are getting annoyed with it. I would complain to the publishers.

Actually publishers do this a lot for the "less popular" instruments. What is surprising is that they have done it for the violin.

With modern publishing techniques there is really no excuse to carry on doing this. Surely it's an offence under the Trade Descriptions act? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[owainsutton]

Just re-read all of this. You have bought a piece of music which claims to be for violin and piano, yet the piano part does not have the violin melody above the piano part. It has the same melody in another key for a different instrument? That sounds like a fairly major publishing error to me. No wonder you are getting annoyed with it. I would complain to the publishers.

Actually publishers do this a lot for the "less popular" instruments. What is surprising is that they have done it for the violin.

This is a rare case of a piece arranged for the violin, rather than the other way around! The only other time I remember a non-violin score for a violin piece is also Schumann, with the Marchenbilder.

With modern publishing techniques there is really no excuse to carry on doing this. Surely it's an offence under the Trade Descriptions act? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

To answer that seriously, I don't think so. The correct solo part is included, and the approach of scoring the original instrument in the accompaniment has precedents going back at least as far as the first editions of these pieces. In the case of a scholarly urtext edition, having the original to cross-reference with the commentary can be essential.