Trinity Guildhall Lack Of Grade 8 Chopin/brahms/schubert, im not happy Options

[1993allende]

for my grade 8 i decided to go with the trinity guildhall sylabus (cba with scales in 3rds, 5ths, 6ths and singing!). The only drawback is the fairly horrendous choice of exam pieces. There is an abscence of chopin, brahms, schubert which completely eliminates my strength which is the standard romantic repertoire. Instead it looks like im playing rachmaninov melodie op3 no3, beethoven scherzo and trio (sonata op2 no3). I have little quarrel with these (isnt the rachmaninov nice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif) ) but then i am left with the prospect of elgar (very unpianistic), mendellsohn song without words op67 no2 (very impossible). The possibility of mozrt, bach and hyden is ruled out by my lack of finger flexability an joint strength (ive only been playing approx 3.5 years lol). Thus the lack of chopin, brahms etc is not welcome (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) and i am stuck with a dilemma. Do i grit my teeth and bluff through abrsm scales, aural etc and get the luxury of some nice chopin, or do i go trinity and bear the elgar or butcher the mendellsohn. Anyone who has seen the trinityguildhall lists will know what i mean so i am open to any other suggestions. Before you ask, no i cant compose well enough to play my own composition (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif).

[oldnotes]

Have a look at LCM. I did my grade 8 in December (merit), playing a Khachaturian study & Beethoven Rule Britania variations (V & coda) instead of scales. Then for my 3 pieces I played the Handel Presto, the lovely Adagio in G by Schubert and Andaluza by Granados. I was going to play Mendelssohn's SwW Opus 19/3, the Hunting song, but changed my mind with a few days to go in favour of the Granados.

There other options that might suit you; Kuhlau Rondo, Mozart Allegro K570, Valse Viennoise by Schmitt and Chopin Etude No. 3. All these are in their G8 book, see website for other options.

Hope this helps

[1993allende]

Have a look at LCM. I did my grade 8 in December (merit), playing a Khachaturian study & Beethoven Rule Britania variations (V & coda) instead of scales. Then for my 3 pieces I played the Handel Presto, the lovely Adagio in G by Schubert and Andaluza by Granados. I was going to play Mendelssohn's SwW Opus 19/3, the Hunting song, but changed my mind with a few days to go in favour of the Granados.

There other options that might suit you; Kuhlau Rondo, Mozart Allegro K570, Valse Viennoise by Schmitt and Chopin Etude No. 3. All these are in their G8 book, see website for other options.

Hope this helps

Thanks for the second opinion but fast mozart is out of my capacity slightly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) nevertheless ill have a look ar lcm

I just find it so poor that there is no chopin or brahms on the trinity guildhall lists (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Mad Tom]

for my grade 8 i decided to go with the trinity guildhall sylabus (cba with scales in 3rds, 5ths, 6ths and singing!). The only drawback is the fairly horrendous choice of exam pieces. There is an abscence of chopin, brahms, schubert which completely eliminates my strength which is the standard romantic repertoire. Instead it looks like im playing rachmaninov melodie op3 no3, beethoven scherzo and trio (sonata op2 no3). I have little quarrel with these (isnt the rachmaninov nice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif) ) but then i am left with the prospect of elgar (very unpianistic), mendellsohn song without words op67 no2 (very impossible). The possibility of mozrt, bach and hyden is ruled out by my lack of finger flexability an joint strength (ive only been playing approx 3.5 years lol). Thus the lack of chopin, brahms etc is not welcome (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) and i am stuck with a dilemma. Do i grit my teeth and bluff through abrsm scales, aural etc and get the luxury of some nice chopin, or do i go trinity and bear the elgar or butcher the mendellsohn. Anyone who has seen the trinityguildhall lists will know what i mean so i am open to any other suggestions. Before you ask, no i cant compose well enough to play my own composition (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif).

Why on earth do you think that your favoured Chopin, Brahms and Schubert need any less flexibility or strength than Mozart, Bach and Haydn?

In many respects the late Baroque and early classical compositions are more straightforward to play - melodies and themes are more boldy and simply stated, accompanying figuration tends to be less complex, and you do not need the subtle and sophisticated pedalling that is essential in Chopin and Brahms. Besides an exam at this level tries to test you ability in several different periods.

You say this "eliminates your strength" (Romantic repertoire) yet you have Rachmaninov's Melodie (if that is not Romantic in style, if not actual date of composition, then what is?), and the Mendelsohhn that you do not fancy is straight from the Romantic period. And if you think that it is "impossible" then perhaps you are not ready for Grade 8. THe examining board clearly think that it is possible at that level.

As for that Mendelsohhn Op. 67 No. 2, not only is it one of the better known of the songs without words (along with the "Spring Song" Op. 62 No. 6, and the "Harry Potter Theme" Op. 19 No. 5) ... it is a wonderful piece, and no more difficult than any Chopin Nocturne or Brahms Intermezzo, and an excellent addition to anyone's repertoire.

One more thing. The available choice is a lot wider than you would have us believe. There is that fantastic Chabrier "Villageoise" from Pieces Pittoresque, a Piazolla Tango, Debussy's "Dr. Gradus ad Parnassum", One of Ireland's "London Pieces", a Scott Joplin rag, a Bartok Rondo, a York Bowen composition, to mention just 7 very different items. Just how much choice and variety do you want?

Finally: the syllabus asks for any own composition to be of "a similar technical and artistic standard" to the other choices. When you look at the repertoire then , taking that requirement literally, that means you can't use an own composition ... unless you consider yourself the artistic equivalent of the composers we have mentioned! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[1993allende]

[quote name='Mad Tom' date='May 10 2010, 01:53 PM' post='949608']
[/quote]
Why on earth do you think that your favoured Chopin, Brahms and Schubert need any less flexibility or strength than Mozart, Bach and Haydn?



[/quote]

slower chopin, brahms and schubert (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . I am better at them mostly because my musical intentions seem to come out more easily and in slower romantic pieces there is less focus on rapid scales, arpeggio passages and alberti bass, all of which my pianistically young and immature hands struggle ot cope with (annoying pinkie reflexes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) etc). Judging by the exhasperated tone in your penultimate paragraph (higher english (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) )
it seems that I somewhat got on your nerves (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) sos for that.

I hope the real name given to that mendellsohn isnt really harry potter theme (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

[Chopinzee]

I can understand the affinity you have with the slower pieces of Brahms and Chopin-though in many ways their music is worlds apart - and presents very different challenges for the pianist... There's a beautiful slow Brahms piece on the current ABRSM Grade 8, one which the composer himself said should be played as if every note is a ritenuto. You've got to do what you've got to do for the Trinity, like any other exam-. It will do you good to learn an occasional piece you may otherwise not usually be inclined to go for, Mendelsohns Songs Without Words may not be the most profound works in the repertoire, but it does'nt stop them being fabulous. Anything by Rachmaninov would be considered Romantic, even works composed well after the golden age of that era had long passed. Generally, I'm not a great fan of English piano music- but Elgars Sonatina is a rare exception, and his Dream Children are nice pieces too, certainly i would'nt describe them as unpianistic. Good luck with the Exam, whichever ones you go for.

[1993allende]

I can understand the affinity you have with the slower pieces of Brahms and Chopin-though in many ways their music is worlds apart - and presents very different challenges for the pianist... There's a beautiful slow Brahms piece on the current ABRSM Grade 8, one which the composer himself said should be played as if every note is a ritenuto. You've got to do what you've got to do for the Trinity, like any other exam-. It will do you good to learn an occasional piece you may otherwise not usually be inclined to go for, Mendelsohns Songs Without Words may not be the most profound works in the repertoire, but it does'nt stop them being fabulous. Anything by Rachmaninov would be considered Romantic, even works composed well after the golden age of that era had long passed. Generally, I'm not a great fan of English piano music- but Elgars Sonatina is a rare exception, and his Dream Children are nice pieces too, certainly i would'nt describe them as unpianistic. Good luck with the Exam, whichever ones you go for.

Thanks for the advice i had no problem with the rachmaninov or recognising it is romantic, i just meant that there is a huge chunk of central romantic repertoire missing rachmaninov i would consider as a bit later (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). I suppose it would do me good to learn extra repertoire anyway. Btw it is elgars 'in smyrna' it really doesnt lie under the hands very well, and the way the parts are constructed is a bit weird (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif)

[Mad Tom]

Judging by the exasperated tone in your penultimate paragraph

Only at calling such a fantastic repertoire list "horrendous" when it is packed with varied and interesting stuff.

it seems that I somewhat got on your nerves

Not at all. I'm glad to see you are tough enough to withstand my lack of tact and diplomacy. [As I have mentioned once before on this forum, my wife says I have "the compassion of a brick" ]

I hope the real name given to that Mendellsohn isn't really harry potter theme (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

Probably not the fate he had in mind for it when he wrote it, but that is indeed what it has turned out to be (as Robodoc first pointed out to me).

[Solari]

Probably not the fate he had in mind for it when he wrote it, but that is indeed what it has turned out to be (as Robodoc first pointed out to me).

So the question is - was John Williams inspired by this? Is it plagiarism, or just coincidence?

Probably not quite as clear cut as Hans Zimmer's obvious copying of Gustav Holst and Carl Orff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mad Tom]

So the question is - was John Williams inspired by this? Is it plagiarism, or just coincidence?

Sounds like straight plagiarism to me.

[PianoDoodler]

for my grade 8 i decided to go with the trinity guildhall sylabus (cba with scales in 3rds, 5ths, 6ths and singing!). The only drawback is the fairly horrendous choice of exam pieces. There is an abscence of chopin, brahms, schubert which completely eliminates my strength which is the standard romantic repertoire. Instead it looks like im playing rachmaninov melodie op3 no3, beethoven scherzo and trio (sonata op2 no3). I have little quarrel with these (isnt the rachmaninov nice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif) ) but then i am left with the prospect of elgar (very unpianistic), mendellsohn song without words op67 no2 (very impossible). The possibility of mozrt, bach and hyden is ruled out by my lack of finger flexability an joint strength (ive only been playing approx 3.5 years lol). Thus the lack of chopin, brahms etc is not welcome (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) and i am stuck with a dilemma. Do i grit my teeth and bluff through abrsm scales, aural etc and get the luxury of some nice chopin, or do i go trinity and bear the elgar or butcher the mendellsohn. Anyone who has seen the trinityguildhall lists will know what i mean so i am open to any other suggestions. Before you ask, no i cant compose well enough to play my own composition (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

Hmmmmm. You do actually have to be able to play a few things to pass grade 8. The list of what you cannot play seems fairly comprehensive.

Are you sure you should be doing grade 8? Maybe you have some technical development to do first?

Just a suggestion.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[muffinmonster]

in slower romantic pieces there is less focus on rapid scales, arpeggio passages and alberti bass, all of which my pianistically young and immature hands struggle ot cope with (annoying pinkie reflexes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) etc).

I don't want to sound harsh but it really sounds as if you're not ready for Grade 8. Rapid scales and arpeggio passages and Alberti bass are all part of the pianistic language, and if you are to be an accomplished pianist then you need to develop the technique to be able to cope with them.

You say in your original post that you have been playing for just 3 and a half years, and you've obviously achieved a lot in that time. However, for adult learners it's quite common for musical understanding to be more advanced than technical ability and this seems to be the case with you. There's nothing for it but to do the technical work if you want to do justice to the music you play.

Good luck.

[1993allende]

quite possibly not ready quite yet - i am looking to get it done in the next academic year though, i cant see myself getting round to doing it at uni or when im working! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dulciana]

A couple of my pupils would agree about the syllabus - they've struggled to find three pieces that they like enough to spend a lot of time on. The Bach is quite long, though not impossible - have you tried that one? It's very interesting to play, and will grow on you a lot even if you don't immediately fall for it. The Joplin and Rachmaninov are not very difficult options, though I do agree that the Mendelssohn is hard to carry off well. Dizzy Fingers, in my opinion, is a gift! Pretty basic scalic passages that anyone at this level really ought to be able to manage. Your teacher may get very sick of listening to it very quickly, though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[Mad Tom]

A couple of my pupils would agree about the syllabus - they've struggled to find three pieces that they like enough to spend a lot of time on.

That is depressing. I think that the TG repertoire list for Grade 8 is packed with interesting and attractive music. Have your pupils actually listened to all of it? Apart from the major composers: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn etc., there is the selection I mentioned in my first post on this thread

Chabrier "Villageoise" from Pieces Pittoresque, a Piazolla Tango, Debussy's "Dr. Gradus ad Parnassum", One of Ireland's "London Pieces", a Scott Joplin rag, a Bartok Rondo, a York Bowen composition

All of them fine and worthwhile works. How can a pianist not want to play all of them?

If a pianist cannot find three pieces that they want to play on that repertoire list I think it tells us more about them than about any deficiencies in the list. If I were doing the TG Grade 8 would have the opposite problem. Choosing what not to learn.