Choosing A Teacher For An Orchestral Instrument. Options

[corenfa]

...
I don't think it is different to anything else, but if I suggest that people who are grade 8 standard do not know enough to teach their instrument, on this forum I get told that I don't know what I am talking about.

In this case, I think you don't know what you are talking about.

Two of my piano teachers had grade 8 and no other qualifications at the time that I was with them. They were fine teachers for me when I was in the lower grades (edit: Except for keeping me doing exam pieces and little else, but technique-wise, I learnt the right things). I was a rubbish student but that was not their fault. The things they taught me have still stuck.

I asked at band practise what people thought about people teaching their instrument as soon as they had got grade 8. One person has grade 8 and knows that he doesn't know enough. Someone else who works in a school music department said that if they hear of anyone doing that they try to get them to stop. They said we tell them that grade 8 is the beginning of learning an instrument, not the end.
...

Right, so these "people" at band practise are qualified to judge, as is "someone else who works in a school music department".

As usual, a gross oversimplification. If I wanted to be a concert pianist then it is true that I would need someone who had the relevant experience of competitions, festivals, and advanced technique that usually are correlated with post-Grade 8 experience. However, if I had children whom I wanted to learn music, Grade 8 would be more than adequate.

Edit: Clarify one point.

[morton]

...
I don't think it is different to anything else, but if I suggest that people who are grade 8 standard do not know enough to teach their instrument, on this forum I get told that I don't know what I am talking about.

In this case, I think you don't know what you are talking about.

Two of my piano teachers had grade 8 and no other qualifications at the time that I was with them. They were fine teachers for me when I was in the lower grades (edit: Except for keeping me doing exam pieces and little else, but technique-wise, I learnt the right things). I was a rubbish student but that was not their fault. The things they taught me have still stuck.

I asked at band practise what people thought about people teaching their instrument as soon as they had got grade 8. One person has grade 8 and knows that he doesn't know enough. Someone else who works in a school music department said that if they hear of anyone doing that they try to get them to stop. They said we tell them that grade 8 is the beginning of learning an instrument, not the end.
...

Right, so these "people" at band practise are qualified to judge, as is "someone else who works in a school music department".

As usual, a gross oversimplification. If I wanted to be a concert pianist then it is true that I would need someone who had the relevant experience of competitions, festivals, and advanced technique that usually are correlated with post-Grade 8 experience. However, if I had children whom I wanted to learn music, Grade 8 would be more than adequate.

Edit: Clarify one point.

The difference I think here is that I have taught grade 8. So I know what the pupils who have passed this exam know. It would be possible for a grade 8 person to pass on to their pupils very bad technique, posture and knowledge of the type of sound that they are aiming for. This is because at grade 8 standard someone is only beginning to have an understanding of how to play. I would want a much higher standard than this for adult education. I am sorry that some children have to put up with teachers who are irresponsible enough to think that they have something to offer their pupils when they are beginners themselves.

[corenfa]

...
The difference I think here is that I have taught grade 8. So I know what the pupils who have passed this exam know. It would be possible for a grade 8 person to pass on to their pupils very bad technique, posture and knowledge of the type of sound that they are aiming for. This is because at grade 8 standard someone is only beginning to have an understanding of how to play. I would want a much higher standard than this for adult education. I am sorry that some children have to put up with teachers who are irresponsible enough to think that they have something to offer their pupils when they are beginners themselves.

I can't even be bothered to go through all the fallacies above because they are so obvious (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Good night, it's past my bedtime.

[vectistim]

Do you really get a handicap for tennis and bowls or is this only golf?

I've seen tennis done where one person is allowed to use the doubles court, that acts as a handicap.
I've played in handicapped table tennis tournaments - these were with games being first to 26 and people being given a head start of up to 20 points.
I'm sure a similar system could be applied to most games.

[primrose]

The difference I think here is that I have taught grade 8. So I know what the pupils who have passed this exam know. It would be possible for a grade 8 person to pass on to their pupils very bad technique, posture and knowledge of the type of sound that they are aiming for. This is because at grade 8 standard someone is only beginning to have an understanding of how to play. I would want a much higher standard than this for adult education. I am sorry that some children have to put up with teachers who are irresponsible enough to think that they have something to offer their pupils when they are beginners themselves.

No-one is suggesting that someone with grade 8 is automatically going to make a good teacher. The perfect teacher would have superb technique, musicality, listening skills, communication skills, organisational skills ... the list is endless. Unfortunately there aren't too many perfect teachers around, so most of us have to compromise somewhere. For a particular pupil, some of these qualities may be less important than others. A teacher who is less than excellent in some ways may therefore be fine for certain kinds of pupil. A budding soloist needs to be taught by someone whose technique is far above grade 8 standard; a beginner doesn't. It's true that even a beginner needs to learn good habits rather than bad ones; but, for a beginner, the sort of technique that will get you to grade 8 is quite good enough to be getting on with.

[morton]

The difference I think here is that I have taught grade 8. So I know what the pupils who have passed this exam know. It would be possible for a grade 8 person to pass on to their pupils very bad technique, posture and knowledge of the type of sound that they are aiming for. This is because at grade 8 standard someone is only beginning to have an understanding of how to play. I would want a much higher standard than this for adult education. I am sorry that some children have to put up with teachers who are irresponsible enough to think that they have something to offer their pupils when they are beginners themselves.

No-one is suggesting that someone with grade 8 is automatically going to make a good teacher. The perfect teacher would have superb technique, musicality, listening skills, communication skills, organisational skills ... the list is endless. Unfortunately there aren't too many perfect teachers around, so most of us have to compromise somewhere. For a particular pupil, some of these qualities may be less important than others. A teacher who is less than excellent in some ways may therefore be fine for certain kinds of pupil. A budding soloist needs to be taught by someone whose technique is far above grade 8 standard; a beginner doesn't. It's true that even a beginner needs to learn good habits rather than bad ones; but, for a beginner, the sort of technique that will get you to grade 8 is quite good enough to be getting on with.

When I was teaching I realised that a beginner needs the most experienced player and teacher. The reason for this is that starting off a beginner is a big responsibility. You have to do it so that no major changes are likely to be needed to their playing when the beginner is beyond the standard of grade 8, Dip ABRSM, LABRSM FABRSM. It is a popular misconception that anyone can start beginners off. If someone is grade 8 they haven't got far enough in theirr own playing to know for certain that they are not going to also need to make a major change in their own playing at a later stage, unless of course they were started of by an experienced teacher and high standard player themselves. This means that when they demonstrate to their pupil, they could be demonstrating in a way that is incorrect.

I have also learned from this forum, and elsewhere, that some people are teaching grade exams by letting the pupil learn the pieces parrot fashion by listening to the CDs. It follows that if a teacher has passed grade 8 using this method, their teacher wasn't actually teaching them. I know this is happening to a greater of lesser degree, because I have another friend who is an experienced accompanist who plays for professional recitals as well as grade exams, and who has complained about the low lever of competence in sight reading of many of the pupils she plays for. She has found out that the pupils learn the pieces by listening to the CDs. The CDs should be an aid, not a teaching method. Only a bad teacher would encourage a pupil to copy someone else's performance. This is the same as copying someone else's work.

I have just this morning spoken to a friend who is an ex music college violinist, who spends a lot of time repairing damage caused to new pupils by inexperienced/bad teaching. A pupil of any standard deserves the best teaching possible. Someone for whom grade 8 standard is the highest attainment in their music education cannot offer the best teaching possible to their pupils because they don't know enough about playing their instruments, or the construction of pieces of music, and they do not have enough experience of playing music, because most of the repertoire is likely to beyond what they can play.

The excuse that someone has to go to a grade 8 standard teacher because there is a shortage of teachers, can't be true if the what the conservatiores say in their statistics is also true, that they are preparing 42% of their students to be teachers.

Do you really get a handicap for tennis and bowls or is this only golf?

I've seen tennis done where one person is allowed to use the doubles court, that acts as a handicap.
I've played in handicapped table tennis tournaments - these were with games being first to 26 and people being given a head start of up to 20 points.
I'm sure a similar system could be applied to most games.

Oh good I learn something new every day!

[Dulcet]

There is a lot of truth in this post. If you had expanded your first post to include all of the qualifications and exceptions you put in here, I think we could all have said "Yes" and gone back to doing something fun!

[Organistin]

I have also learned from this forum, and elsewhere, that some people are teaching grade exams by letting the pupil learn the pieces parrot fashion by listening to the CDs. It follows that if a teacher has passed grade 8 using this method, their teacher wasn't actually teaching them. I know this is happening to a greater of lesser degree, because I have another friend who is an experienced accompanist who plays for professional recitals as well as grade exams, and who has complained about the low lever of competence in sight reading of many of the pupils she plays for. She has found out that the pupils learn the pieces by listening to the CDs. The CDs should be an aid, not a teaching method. Only a bad teacher would encourage a pupil to copy someone else's performance. This is the same as copying someone else's work.

I would love to meet the person who could learn the pieces I am learning for grade 8 piano simply by listening to the CDs and learning parrot fashion. They would have to be a genius to pull that off.

[morton]

I have also learned from this forum, and elsewhere, that some people are teaching grade exams by letting the pupil learn the pieces parrot fashion by listening to the CDs. It follows that if a teacher has passed grade 8 using this method, their teacher wasn't actually teaching them. I know this is happening to a greater of lesser degree, because I have another friend who is an experienced accompanist who plays for professional recitals as well as grade exams, and who has complained about the low lever of competence in sight reading of many of the pupils she plays for. She has found out that the pupils learn the pieces by listening to the CDs. The CDs should be an aid, not a teaching method. Only a bad teacher would encourage a pupil to copy someone else's performance. This is the same as copying someone else's work.

I would love to meet the person who could learn the pieces I am learning for grade 8 piano simply by listening to the CDs and learning parrot fashion. They would have to be a genius to pull that off.

I would think it depends how long you have to spend on learning the grade 8 pieces. I am told that for a wind instruments a year or 2 is not very unusual. I will admit that it is much quicker if you can read them off the page.

[flobiano]

I have also learned from this forum, and elsewhere, that some people are teaching grade exams by letting the pupil learn the pieces parrot fashion by listening to the CDs.

er...I don't remember any teachers/ parents from this forum ever saying or even suggesting that they did that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

The difference I think here is that I have taught grade 8. So I know what the pupils who have passed this exam know. It would be possible for a grade 8 person to pass on to their pupils very bad technique, posture and knowledge of the type of sound that they are aiming for.

um..so in a nutshell, your point is that Grade 8 students shouldn't teach because they generally have very bad technique, posture and tone, and this conclusion is mainly based on observations of your own students? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

I think I might need the zipped up mouth smiley.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

On a more serious note - I am sure there are some "grade 8" musicians who have poor technique and shouldn't be allowed to teach. I am sure there are also some musicians with performance degrees and teaching degrees that in reality shouldn't be allowed to teach!

But there are equally many grade 8 students with a good solid foundation of good technique and an awareness of their own faults,an understanding of what the common pitfalls are who are more than capable of passing this on to their students. Often this is done with the support of their own teacher. There are also a number of "grade 8" musicians who have had years of lessons post Grade 8 but simply haven't bothered doing any further exams. They maybe playing at a significantly higher level than grade 8 with a high level of understanding of what is good/ bad technique. It is simply ridiculous to suggest that they are unable to teach well.

Presence or absence of bits of paper do not always relate to competence.

[morton]

I have also learned from this forum, and elsewhere, that some people are teaching grade exams by letting the pupil learn the pieces parrot fashion by listening to the CDs.

er...I don't remember any teachers/ parents from this forum ever saying or even suggesting that they did that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

The difference I think here is that I have taught grade 8. So I know what the pupils who have passed this exam know. It would be possible for a grade 8 person to pass on to their pupils very bad technique, posture and knowledge of the type of sound that they are aiming for.

um..so in a nutshell, your point is that Grade 8 students shouldn't teach because they generally have very bad technique, posture and tone, and this conclusion is mainly based on observations of your own students? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

I think I might need the zipped up mouth smiley.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)


On a more serious note - I am sure there are some "grade 8" musicians who have poor technique and shouldn't be allowed to teach. I am sure there are also some musicians with performance degrees and teaching degrees that in reality shouldn't be allowed to teach!

But there are equally many grade 8 students with a good solid foundation of good technique and an awareness of their own faults,an understanding of what the common pitfalls are who are more than capable of passing this on to their students. Often this is done with the support of their own teacher. There are also a number of "grade 8" musicians who have had years of lessons post Grade 8 but simply haven't bothered doing any further exams. They maybe playing at a significantly higher level than grade 8 with a high level of understanding of what is good/ bad technique. It is simply ridiculous to suggest that they are unable to teach well.

Presence or absence of bits of paper do not always relate to competence.

I think I actually said that not teaching at grade 8 standard applied to people whose musical education had only reached this stage. They simply do not know enough. Teaching under the guidance of another more experienced teacher used to be called teaching practice. However the person doing the practice did not get paid for it. I also think that if someone is doing this with only grade 8 standard then, there is no reason why someone with a much higher standard of musical education isn't doing it as well.

[saxophile]

In all honesty I wouldn't go with either of the two teachers you have outlined in the OP.

I'd hope that someone had taken up their instrument or continued with it to an advanced level because they were passionate about it. And that's the sort of person I'd want for my teacher in addition to them meeting certain other requirements.

At a beginner level the requirements are different to at a higher level.

To teach a beginner requires someone who can inspire, explain, coax and encourage as well as provide a secure basic technique. It also requires a degree of flexibility as not everyone will be able to take the same path towards proficiency. The teacher's playing standard is secondary to their ability to accurately convey the techniques required to play the instrument. (As a teacher I was taught that one did not have to be the next Picasso in order to teach art effectively and cultivate a child's natural talent.)

To teach an advanced player the teacher themselves needs to be more advanced and experienced in a variety of styles and playing settings. They need to be familiar with more advanced techniques and problems commonly encountered. They still need to be encouraging, good at explaining or demonstrating etc. For an advanced player I believe that the teacher's own playing ability and their ability to teach are each 50% contributors to their efficacy as a teacher.

What bits of paper my teacher/s has and whether they are recent or from 20, 30, 40+ years ago frankly doesn't bother me so long as they can do the job I'm paying them for.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

You could have a teacher with all the qualifications in the world who still would not be a good teacher - for a particular student at a particular stage in their learning. I have no idea what qualifications my teacher has, other than that he did go to music college and has done a reasonable amount of performance. What matters to me is that he has a sound I aspire to, a style of teaching which encourages me to do the best I can, and also that he can fit around my insane work schedule at times (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . None of those are factors which are necessarily tested by any particular set of qualifications!

[morton]

In all honesty I wouldn't go with either of the two teachers you have outlined in the OP.

I'd hope that someone had taken up their instrument or continued with it to an advanced level because they were passionate about it. And that's the sort of person I'd want for my teacher in addition to them meeting certain other requirements.

At a beginner level the requirements are different to at a higher level.

To teach a beginner requires someone who can inspire, explain, coax and encourage as well as provide a secure basic technique. It also requires a degree of flexibility as not everyone will be able to take the same path towards proficiency. The teacher's playing standard is secondary to their ability to accurately convey the techniques required to play the instrument. (As a teacher I was taught that one did not have to be the next Picasso in order to teach art effectively and cultivate a child's natural talent.)

To teach an advanced player the teacher themselves needs to be more advanced and experienced in a variety of styles and playing settings. They need to be familiar with more advanced techniques and problems commonly encountered. They still need to be encouraging, good at explaining or demonstrating etc. For an advanced player I believe that the teacher's own playing ability and their ability to teach are each 50% contributors to their efficacy as a teacher.

What bits of paper my teacher/s has and whether they are recent or from 20, 30, 40+ years ago frankly doesn't bother me so long as they can do the job I'm paying them for.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

You could have a teacher with all the qualifications in the world who still would not be a good teacher - for a particular student at a particular stage in their learning. I have no idea what qualifications my teacher has, other than that he did go to music college and has done a reasonable amount of performance. What matters to me is that he has a sound I aspire to, a style of teaching which encourages me to do the best I can, and also that he can fit around my insane work schedule at times (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . None of those are factors which are necessarily tested by any particular set of qualifications!

He wouldn't have a sound you would aspire to if he had only got to grade 8 standard. I can't think of anyone I know that makes a sound on an oboe at grade 8 standard that anyone would aspire to.

[saxophile]

You could have a teacher with all the qualifications in the world who still would not be a good teacher - for a particular student at a particular stage in their learning. I have no idea what qualifications my teacher has, other than that he did go to music college and has done a reasonable amount of performance. What matters to me is that he has a sound I aspire to, a style of teaching which encourages me to do the best I can, and also that he can fit around my insane work schedule at times (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . None of those are factors which are necessarily tested by any particular set of qualifications!

He wouldn't have a sound you would aspire to if he had only got to grade 8 standard. I can't think of anyone I know that makes a sound on an oboe at grade 8 standard that anyone would aspire to.

I'm not going to comment on your second point, since I have no frame of reference within the oboe world. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But there's a difference between only getting to Grade 8 standard, and getting way beyond Grade 8 standard but not having any bits of paper to "prove" that. Which is why, with teachers, it really is a case of trying them out and making up your own mind. A teacher with heaven knows how many qualifications still might not have a sound that you would want to achieve yourself, whereas someone with no formal qualifications might be a natural teacher and have a fantastic sound and style for a student to emulate.

[morton]

You could have a teacher with all the qualifications in the world who still would not be a good teacher - for a particular student at a particular stage in their learning. I have no idea what qualifications my teacher has, other than that he did go to music college and has done a reasonable amount of performance. What matters to me is that he has a sound I aspire to, a style of teaching which encourages me to do the best I can, and also that he can fit around my insane work schedule at times (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . None of those are factors which are necessarily tested by any particular set of qualifications!

He wouldn't have a sound you would aspire to if he had only got to grade 8 standard. I can't think of anyone I know that makes a sound on an oboe at grade 8 standard that anyone would aspire to.

I'm not going to comment on your second point, since I have no frame of reference within the oboe world. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But there's a difference between only getting to Grade 8 standard, and getting way beyond Grade 8 standard but not having any bits of paper to "prove" that. Which is why, with teachers, it really is a case of trying them out and making up your own mind. A teacher with heaven knows how many qualifications still might not have a sound that you would want to achieve yourself, whereas someone with no formal qualifications might be a natural teacher and have a fantastic sound and style for a student to emulate.

Yes I have realised this, that is why I have been careful to say, someone whose highest level of musical education is grade 8 standard. It is based on the fact that I have known and know of people who have started teaching at this level. If anyone thinks that they have enough knowledge to start teaching someone else, when they are only at this level, they are seriously misguided. I can't see what they think that the pupil is going to gain?