When is one ready for a diploma? Options

[It'sMeC!]

This question is probably of the length of string type! Are there any broad criteria to be met before it's sensible to think about tackling a first diploma? For example, is it advisable to wait for a certain length of time after grade 8 or to have played a certain amount of repertoire at/above that level?
Would really appreciate any feedback on this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[jod]

That's a hard one!

Do you feel ready for the paperwork side of things and the Viva Voce?

You can be the greatest player, but unless you are ready for the rest of the exam, quick study-not sight reading and you've got to pass it, and write programme notes and answer questions on it you are not ready for a Diploma.

It is far more of a complete package than a Grade exam.

[mrbouffant]

When you are good enough to pass it.

[Lucysop]

This question is probably of the length of string type! Are there any broad criteria to be met before it's sensible to think about tackling a first diploma? For example, is it advisable to wait for a certain length of time after grade 8 or to have played a certain amount of repertoire at/above that level?
Would really appreciate any feedback on this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A very good question and I'm not sure there is a definitive answer....!

I think you need to consult with your teacher, read the syllabus carefully to see if you feel you can manage all of the required elements to a significantly higher standard than Grade 8. I would tentatively suggest that you are able to perform (for a paying audience) not only enough repertoire for the recital length specified but for two if not three of these as you will need a lot at a high standard to chose your programme from. Listening to a number of other performers of your instrument at summerschools and masterclasses who may have a diploma or have sat the exam and try to honestly guage your ability in relation to their level to get an idea of whether you are of the required level. Its not a definitive response, just a suggestion!

You should attend masterclasses when you can to get used to presenting repertoire pieces and getting constructive criticism. Listen to as much repertoire in your instrument as you can both live and in recordings, do as much background reading as you can to find out how much or how little you know.

I think you only know if you're ready, when you pass; until that point I was not 100% sure! However, I had recieved encouragement from others who had either done diplomas or taught them, suggesting that I ought to have a go. Nothing ventured, nothing gained! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

mrbouffant is correct in his statement, but knowing if you are or not is the difficult bit. Good luck if youare trying to decide!

[corenfa]

This question is probably of the length of string type! Are there any broad criteria to be met before it's sensible to think about tackling a first diploma? For example, is it advisable to wait for a certain length of time after grade 8 or to have played a certain amount of repertoire at/above that level?
Would really appreciate any feedback on this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(Full disclosure - I don't have a diploma, I couldn't be bothered to work the repertoire up to what I think is the required level)

I think what is required beyond technical ability is musical maturity- however long it takes to acquire that. Now *that* is a how long is a piece of string statement, so let me try and justify that..

I would classify musical maturity as being able to communicate something while performing a piece. To play it in a style that is appropriate to its period and context, to "do something" with it that makes it clear you know more than the notes.

I'll try and give an example.. one of my Grade 8 pieces from way back when, a Mozart sonata, is now on the ATCL list. When I was a Grade 8 student I could play it all the way through, but blasted if I knew how to do anything more than play it all the way through. Now that I have more musical maturity I can see that

- here I might slow down a bit to make this iteration of the theme sound different from the last one
- here I might emphasise this change in harmony, because falling circle of fifths sounds so heartfelt sometimes
- here I might play this imagining that this was the orchestral accompaniment to a Mozart opera, with a bit of drama.

Or with a Bach prelude and fugue - can I articulate this so it sounds like how a Baroque string ensemble would? Can I use articulation to bring out the voices? Can I or should I use a bit of pedal there, to brighten the tone? Do I need my teacher to mark out every articulation or pedal marking for me, or can I come up with some ideas myself?

I can now say I can "do something " with the pieces.

I wouldn't say that I "have" musical maturity but I think I am on the path to it.

I think that if all one has played (not saying this about you - I don't know your background) is exam pieces, then one is definitely not ready. I think that one would have to have played, as you say, a fair amount of repertoire at Grade 8 or post-Grade 8 level, but that's because I think that's one step on the way towards this musical maturity.

Edit: And I am sure it is entirely possible to simulate enough of the above to pass the exam. However, the question was "When is one ready" and I would argue that one is not really ready if one has to fake it.

Edit edit: I also think it is possible to have musical maturity without having to think about it as much as I do, above. I think some people are naturally talented enough to internalise different musical styles and "short circuit" some of the above process - that is, to say something with their playing without having to intellectualise a great deal about it.

[Robodoc]

When you are good enough to pass it.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) - not only that, but good enough to pass each bit of it. I wasn't (it seems).

[fsharpminor]

I can do no other but to endorse Corenfas excellent analysis above.

[It'sMeC!]

Thank you everyone for your very thoughtful and helpful responses - very much appreciated.

I've done some "research" on youtube, watching videos of people who have (or claim to have) passed a diploma. The conclusions I've drawn from my research? No idea. I think it's very difficult to objectively say whether I am a better/worse/same player! I think it would definitely be worth recording myself playing though, and I'll be doing that tomorrow in the hope I'll be able to critically assess my playing better.

I have another string length question - how much of a commitment is taking something like ATCL? I'm trying to decide what exactly I want to do at the moment with music.

Although I'm not planning on being a professional in terms of job, my aim is to play at a level approaching that so taking a diploma would be purely for my own sense of achievement. I definitely work best at something when I have a goal in mind, and I feel that since grade 8 three years ago I've just drifted along in a sideways sort of way not progressing (but having a serious amount of fun!) so I feel that now could be the right time to think about some structure.

I think I might be talking myself into diploma preparations...!

[barry-clari]

I have another string length question - how much of a commitment is taking something like ATCL? I'm trying to decide what exactly I want to do at the moment with music.

My experience is that it's considerable : don't underestimate it. Do plenty of practice and work, find a good accompanist to work with, and ideally do a dry run in public recital form if at all possible.

I passed grade 8 in 1991, and will do ATCL almost exactly 20 years later! But that's largely through choice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Clari_notts]

I would echo corenfa and bari here, my experience over the last few years has been enjoyable but the work was considerable for both steps, I passed grade 8 in 1984 as a 16 yr old but left my Dip until 2008 and the LRSM in 2010 - mainly through circumstances and choice.

At Dip level my take is that examiners are looking for technical security and a developing musical maturity. My exam report contains lots of comments about the feel of the music, how it came across, whether it said anything to them as the audience.

At LRSM level the maturity has to go further still, you almost have to show you have a musical soul and a developing professional artistry as a concert performer. If the pieces dont communicate or move the examiners you dont pass - simple as that.

How long does it take to develop the skill to communicate and when do you know it's there? That really is a tough question that only your teacher and your audiences can tell you! So perform lots and get feedback from everyone who hears you play. Look out for comments about emotions and feelings then you'll know you're on the way! Good luck on the journey.

[corenfa]

...

I have another string length question - how much of a commitment is taking something like ATCL? I'm trying to decide what exactly I want to do at the moment with music.

Although I'm not planning on being a professional in terms of job, my aim is to play at a level approaching that so taking a diploma would be purely for my own sense of achievement. I definitely work best at something when I have a goal in mind, and I feel that since grade 8 three years ago I've just drifted along in a sideways sort of way not progressing (but having a serious amount of fun!) so I feel that now could be the right time to think about some structure.

I think I might be talking myself into diploma preparations...!

A friend of mine did it in 2 or 3 years preparation, on top of holding on a full-time job. She has played the piano since she was little and teaches part-time. I know that she practised at least an hour a day a few times a week.

If I could be bothered to work at it, I think it would take me the same amount of time of dedicated practise and study. That's because I have a day job. If I didn't have a day job, I think I could do it in a year. So, to echo what other people have said here, quite a lot of time....

I have no idea if the above is even helpful to you, because you don't know me nor my friend, so it might be totally useless... but here you go anyway!

[Sunrise]

I would echo corenfa and bari here, my experience over the last few years has been enjoyable but the work was considerable for both steps, I passed grade 8 in 1984 as a 16 yr old but left my Dip until 2008 and the LRSM in 2010 - mainly through circumstances and choice.

At Dip level my take is that examiners are looking for technical security and a developing musical maturity. My exam report contains lots of comments about the feel of the music, how it came across, whether it said anything to them as the audience.

At LRSM level the maturity has to go further still, you almost have to show you have a musical soul and a developing professional artistry as a concert performer. If the pieces dont communicate or move the examiners you dont pass - simple as that.

How long does it take to develop the skill to communicate and when do you know it's there? That really is a tough question that only your teacher and your audiences can tell you! So perform lots and get feedback from everyone who hears you play. Look out for comments about emotions and feelings then you'll know you're on the way! Good luck on the journey.

I agree will this completely. Good luck on the journey...it can be an interesting one!