Balancing The Violin Options

[jojo]

Allan you raise a very good point about the height of the shoulder rest. Having played around with the height a bit I can see what you mean. Thanks for the tip!

Let me ask another question then; leaving aside the issue of personal preference for working with or without a shoulder rest, if you work without a shoulder rest doesnt that put the neck and head at an odd angle? And over the course of the years wouldnt that cause strain in the muscles concerned?

I have no bias either way about shoulder rests, it just seems logical to me that if you hold the head and neck at an unnatural angle for a number of hours/week, that some sort of strain might set in at some point down the line.

For those of you who have experience of working without one, is that not the case?

MollyB I know personally violin players with VERY long necks and sloping shoulders (well, although the violin rests on collarbone I often hear people 'complaining' about their 'sloping shoulders), one of these is my alexander technique teacher, and he does not use a shoulder rest and even only has a 'guarnieri' chin-rest on his violin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)
does he keep his neck/head at an 'unnatural' angle? an alexander technique teacher? you must be joking, he'd rather be 'executed' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) he still plays really well without a shoulder rest, his body aligned better than anyone else around, still does vibrato and shifts around with no problems. His vibrato is like mine, it's mainly a finger vibrato, his arm/wrist move very little when he does it by the way....
his neck/head are not twisted/leaning to one side at all, the violin does not need to be held with your chin/jaw so there's no need for him to tilt sideways and clamp it with the jaw.

He did say it took him a total of 4 months (if I remember right) to learn to play without a shoulder rest and to have his body perfectly lined up in its best way, he spent day in and day out at first just standing there holding the thing, then slowly starting to play open strings and little things, his teacher is a shoulder rest user and could not understand why he was putting himself through this but patiently waited for him all this time as in this time he did not progress of course.....

Why did he do it? he said that with the shoulder rest he never managed to get the perfect body alignment, very interesting I think, seeing that he's an 'expert' at helping people find the perfect body alignment.....there really must not have been any way for him to play well aligned with a shoulder rest...he said he sooner or later experienced tension or discomfort, it just would not work. (he's been learning violin for 6 years and has been an alexander technique teacher for at least 30, being quite 'famous' in his field so one of the 'good' AT teachers out there).

Anyway, interesting stuff isn't it?
ps I am looking forward to when I will do my alexander technique lessons with my violin to see if he can spot any way I can have perfect body alignment with a shoulder rest...at present we are still doing basic foundation lessons...

[jojo]

Well the answer to Jojo's question is no, I don't clamp my thumb when playing the viola. I find that if I use a shoulder rest with the viola I get terrible pains in my neck and feel that it pushs my neck over to the right slightly, I've even got a little soft pad on it, and thats still too much, Its really better with nothing (although I get a corking mark on my clavical and it gets tender (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I think I'd be happy playing my violin with or without a shoulder rest, but I'm nowhere near the stage of doing vibrato, so maybe thats the difference. I dont have a short neck by the way. I dont think my teacher would accept playing without a shoulder rest, she is of the opinion you need one. When I start my proper viola lessons with her in September I dont know what she will say, but no way can I use one with the viola.

extremely interesting Vitula, I wonder if you are one of those people who are better off without the shoulder rest. If I were you I'd start to play violin without it now that you are at the beginning stages, by the time you get more advanced you will be so confident playing with no shoulder rest it won't matter anymore and you'll do vibrato/shifting etc with no problems (it is possible!)
you'll need your teacher to just 'accept' that you are a better/healthier player without a shoulder rest, a good teacher should know and accept this surely? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)
as for the 'corking mark' a piece of chamois usually works well (in between viola and your collarbone) have you tired that?

[MollyB]

This is really interesting Jojo and is completely opposite to what I'd expected to hear.

So if his jaw is not holding the violin in place, he must be balancing it with his left hand?

Just as importantly though he must have absolutely no tension in his entire left arm. And his finger movements / pressure must be very light. Otherwise he'd never be able to retain that posture. I'm trying to imagine myself without a shoulder rest and the only way I could see it working if I were not using the jaw to hold it in place would be a very light touch and no tension anywhere from finger to shoulder.

I must admit I'd like to work without a shoulder rest because it leaves bruising on my collarbone. So I suspect then (given what you've said) that I'm using the shoulder rest as a crutch and what I should be doing is focussing on a better posture and tension-free pose. Methinks its time to do a little experimentation.

This is really interesting -thanks for sharing that! I can see I've got some work to do.

Speaking of, I remember you saying you wanted to try working without a shoulder rest - have you tried it yet Jojo and how are you getting on without it?

[jojo]

Speaking of, I remember you saying you wanted to try working without a shoulder rest - have you tried it yet Jojo and how are you getting on without it?

I am waiting for my alexander technique teacher to go over this with me....
and at the moment I do not want to put my progress on 'hold' for four months like he did, but I will if after my violin sessions with him he tells me I ought to and helps me to do it.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

yes he uses his left hand and collarbone to hold violin, the thumb plays a major role in this and keeping the scroll of violin high enough too. As for finger pressure and tension, this should be quite similar with or without shoulder rest. I know I can play without a shoulder rest as I have done it but did not have the patience to 'do it all' (ie when the bits came along where I was used to a shoulder rest then I would put it on as an 'easy way out'), sorry need to 'dash out' now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[viola-mad]

as for the 'corking mark' a piece of chamois usually works well (in between viola and your collarbone) have you tired that?

I'd second that. As well as minimising any marks on your collarbone and neck, it will help prevent the instrument slipping around!

[jojo]

in this video you can see from 1:10 quite well what Heifetz does with the left hand, I think he has excellent posture by the way when he plays, nicely balanced and straight, no tension anywhere, I do aspire to achieve that, I know I will never achieve the skill he had in playing the violin but the balanced body would be nice and hopefully I will with my AT teacher's help (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

in this video you can see from 1:10 quite well what Heifetz does with the left hand, I think he has excellent posture by the way when he plays, nicely balanced and straight, no tension anywhere, I do aspire to achieve that, I know I will never achieve the skill he had in playing the violin but the balanced body would be nice and hopefully I will with my AT teacher's help (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

sorry I just LOVE watching him play! I love listening to him but even more 'watching him' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[miffy]

I can play without, but don't find it so comfortable. Some of the pieces I play, I just couldn't feel secure if I was holding with the hand, fast leaps or playing in the upper inch of the fingerboard (who invented these silly pieces (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) )
I hold with my jaw and shoulder rest. I clamp a bit with my jaw if I'm concentrating sometimes or squinting at the music, but like the feeling of complete freedom of left arm and hand that you get from using a rest.
I know men often have a pad under their jacket - I'm not sure if they are pretending they don't need a rest or just don't want to scratch the Strad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[MollyB]

Look at those fingers go..... I'm green with envy ....

I'm always on the look-out for clips like this which focus on the hands of the player and one thing I'm seeing is that there is no single "perfect way" of doing everything. All of the talented players (classical & trad) make the violin and the bow their own rather than conforming to a single ideal way of doing everything.

Its really interesting to see the differences.

Having watched this Heifetz clip, I watched Perlman play Zigeunerweisen and its like chalk and cheese.

Thanks Jojo, that clip is perfect.

[Jacobi]

I think you need to work out what works best for you eg Nathan Milstein does not use a rest (was taught by teacher of Heifetz) and is totally different positioning to Heifetz!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sklCKCE7zLc

[jojo]

I think you need to work out what works best for you eg Nathan Milstein does not use a rest (was taught by teacher of Heifetz) and is totally different positioning to Heifetz!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sklCKCE7zLc

OMG!!!! look at that scroll pointing to the floor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) TOTALLY the opposite of Heifetz (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[MollyB]

What's hilariously ironic is that often this very argument is used as a reason FOR making everyone play with a shoulder rest.

Hmmm - everyone is different and needs a different solution, so let's give them all the same solution... run that by me again?! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Exactly! Thank heavens for a common sense approach. How on earth did people ever learn to play 200 years ago without a shoulder rest (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)