New Instrumemt., I need opinions :) Options

[mattrattley]

also, "useful" isn't a brilliant reason to start a new instrument, especially with winds as they take considerably more work to get them sounding great than a violin for example (even though some say they're easier to start).

Oh Matt, you really are dropping yourself into the most awful hole by saying these things. You've already upset the flautists and now it's the violinists turn.

Have you ever played the violin yourself? Do you actually have experience of listening to violinists at various stages of their learning? If not, then I would be very careful when commenting on the subject of tone production.........

i think i'll keep my mouth shut in future then, or get a long ladder so i can climb out of the holes easier (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) also i just realised i wrote the original post the wrong way round - winds are harder to start, and strings are harder to get good at...

i've been reliably informed by friends who play both that it's easier to get a sound out of a string instrument to begin with but infinately harder to make it sound nice - things like vibrato and position changing are apparently really impossible but because you don't have to deal with those things to begin with, it's fairly straightforward.

on woodwind they found that it was more difficult than they expected to get all the notes out - but once they could play all the notes, got used to breathing properly etc. things like vibrato came naturally, and getting really good on the wind instrument was easier for them.

anyone else have a problem with what i've said (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) ?

[sonataform]

anyone else have a problem with what i've said (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) ?

Message from the Conciliation Department of the All Musicians Are Equally Wonderful Association:

I think it's very natural to become annoyed if someone suggests that the instrument you play is easy in some respect, as if this meant that it was easy in all respects. But the difficulties lie in different places. As a pianist, I'm the first to admit that any fool can play an F# on the piano, but I wouldn't have the first idea of how to do that on a trumpet. But a trumpeter doesn't have to deal with more than one note at a time, whereas a pianist might have to sightread a ten-note chord.

There are plenty of other examples but they don't really matter. What does matter is that being a musician is equally difficult, challenging, enjoyable and rewarding regardless of what instrument you play.

Dragging this whole thing back on-topic, how about percussion as an alternative study? It is fantastic fun, the techniques for many of the instruments are easily explained and mastered, your rhythmic sense will be enhanced (which will certainly feed back to the instruments you play now, as will other aspects like attack and dynamics) and best of all you won't be expected to buy anything! I'm sure that there are several bands or orchestras in your area which already own the equipment and are on the lookout for people willing to play it.

[mattrattley]

anyone else have a problem with what i've said (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) ?

I think it's very natural to become annoyed if someone suggests that the instrument you play is easy in some respect, as if this meant that it was easy in all respects. But the difficulties lie in different places. As a pianist, I'm the first to admit that any fool can play an F# on the piano, but I wouldn't have the first idea of how to do that on a trumpet. But a trumpeter doesn't have to deal with more than one note at a time, whereas a pianist might have to sightread a ten-note chord.

There are plenty of other examples but they don't really matter. What does matter is that being a musician is equally difficult, challenging, enjoyable and rewarding regardless of what instrument you play.

exactly - there are pros and cons to everything, it's the music that counts. everyone has an opinion on how easy instruments are (there's always a "what's the easiest instrument thread" going on (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) but let's all have a big group hug and return to the matter in hand.

percussion sounds like a good idea - as you play piano i figure you're somewhat used to different fingers doing different things and that's the sort of thing that will stand you in good stead with percussion (eg marimbas, drum kits).

if you're dead set on wind instruments, then it really is up to you - each wind instrument is individual and it's a personal choice in the end.

also, heslop, why not brass or sax?

[Morgan's Munchkin]

- i don't mean the flute is easy overall, i mean it's the easiest to play fast stuff, compared to the other three. no, of course it's not easy - but as far as full speed playing goes, you haven't got a reed to slow you down and you've got the smallest air column of the four (i think (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) ).

The only reason flutes can play fast stuff easier is because they are able to double/triple tongue it without too many problems. However you have to send months learning to double/triple tongue in the first place, cos believe me - it's not easy!!

Also, you say we have the smallest air column, but have you considered that the flute takes quite a bit more air than some instruments because half of it is lost over the top of the instrument.

[snhs]

i haven't flexed my arguing muscles for a while... and besides, i'm having fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

yes, a flute does use alot of air, but the air that gets into the instrument instantly produces a sound. the other three have a middle man - the reed - and so the air has to get the reed going, which then produces the sound. this isn't necessarily any slower - what is slower is getting a reed to change from one vibration to another (ie a change of note) - something a flute doesn't have to worry about.

my teacher's told me that boehm tried to make a bassoon with his idealistic fingering layout but it sounded horrendous and so he gave up. apparently the oboe didn't fare too well either - something about cross-fingerings not working very well...?

and the contrabassoon is brilliant! what's the problem with it? you can't help but smile when it's playing - we did a bit of tchaikovsky (valse des fleurs i think) and playing the little "did-dl-y-dum-dum" bits on a contra was great. ok, it sounded ridiculous - but that's all part of its charm (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

... no match for the contra, but hey, it's better than a piccolo... *runs away*

You had better be careful i spend most of my free time at bands arguing about this kind of thing and i always win (despite what the violin section might say). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
I think your terminology might be slightly confused air often gets into a flute and produces no sound it is only when that air is channeled through the lungs, mouth and then the instrument itself that a sound is produced.
the elusive 'middle man' you are searching for is actually present in the flute with the air stream being directed at one side of the mouthpiece which then directs the air into the instrument (infinitely more sensible than a reed IMHO). I was also under the impression that taking more breaths than other instruments would also slow response which would be true of the flute compared to bassoon, oboe and the rest but i might be wrong on that, although i rather doubt it.
Unless my memory is completely failing me Boehm was a flautist as a result he probably did not have a full understanding of the bassoon hence it is no wonder his experiment was not as sucessful as his flute.
Besides which are there no bassoon-playing people interested enough in it to have a go?(with the bassoon perhaps not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )
Or are you just waiting for bored flautists with a lot of free time on their hands to do it for you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

A better question would be what isn't wrong with it. For example it spends the vast majority of time in a stand only playing in two out of every few thousand bars (if that), when it is played it is seldom heard in the orchestral melee and the few times that it is heard it sounds completely daft.
As to your musical example the segments you refer to sound far better played on a clarinet or sax, with the flute on the top part playing all the melody of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

What is it with bassoon players and high instruments? - probably some sort of repressed desire thing where you all actually want to be flute players (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

"on woodwind they found that it was more difficult than they expected to get all the notes out - but once they could play all the notes, got used to breathing properly etc. things like vibrato came naturally, and getting really good on the wind instrument was easier for them."

I'm glad you find it so easy, I look forward to seeing you appear as the Sir James of the bassoon soon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
You really need to be careful with subjective terms like 'really good' i mean what in one moment sounds really good might sound absolutely dreadful compared to another recording etc.

As to getting the notes on stringed instruments being easy you might want to retract it before one of them starts talking about positions - something we can all do without - even if it has been the source of thousands of excellent jokes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) .

Back on topic percussion would probably be a good compromise i don't think even the most severe conductors insist on you taking the timpani home for practice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). As Matt said its up to you but you really need to think about what will give you the best chance of getting into music college and that would probably being doing extra practice on your main instrument(s) if you have that much free time.

Can i also take this moment to agree in principal with the Conciliation Department of the All Musicians Are Equally Wonderful Association although i reserve the right to withdraw this support if confronted at a later date by a suitably interesting argument (or just the next school band rehersal).

P.S. Matt if you are going to continue you only have two sections left to insult before you've got the whole set (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) .

The only reason flutes can play fast stuff easier is because they are able to double/triple tongue it without too many problems. However you have to send months learning to double/triple tongue in the first place, cos believe me - it's not easy!!

Also, you say we have the smallest air column, but have you considered that the flute takes quite a bit more air than some instruments because half of it is lost over the top of the instrument.

Glad someone else sees sense no suprise that its another flautist though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . It actually takes more air than any other instrument including the tuba - fascinating facts to annoy music playing friends for flautists vol. 1 (at all good bookstores soon!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

[mattrattley]

this is getting ridiculous but i feel i should respond.

I think your terminology might be slightly confused air often gets into a flute and produces no sound it is only when that air is channeled through the lungs, mouth and then the instrument itself that a sound is produced.

i mean the actual air column that is vibrating in the instrument, not the air that goes in - yes, it might have to put more air in than anything else but because not as much of it is vibrating, to change the note it's vibrating at is easier.

the elusive 'middle man' you are searching for is actually present in the flute with the air stream being directed at one side of the mouthpiece which then directs the air into the instrument (infinitely more sensible than a reed IMHO). I was also under the impression that taking more breaths than other instruments would also slow response which would be true of the flute compared to bassoon, oboe and the rest but i might be wrong on that, although i rather doubt it.

as you admit, a mouthpiece is more sensible - because it makes the air react quicker to any changes you as the player make. it does what you want when you want it instead of having to manipulate a reed.

Unless my memory is completely failing me Boehm was a flautist as a result he probably did not have a full understanding of the bassoon hence it is no wonder his experiment was not as sucessful as his flute.
Besides which are there no bassoon-playing people interested enough in it to have a go?(with the bassoon perhaps not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )
Or are you just waiting for bored flautists with a lot of free time on their hands to do it for you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

there have been plenty of attempts and actually heckel did a good job (he pretty much made the modern german bassoon), just that, by design, a big lump of wood is going to be harder to play than a small lump of wood (or metal).

A better question would be what isn't wrong with it. For example it spends the vast majority of time in a stand only playing in two out of every few thousand bars (if that), when it is played it is seldom heard in the orchestral melee and the few times that it is heard it sounds completely daft.
As to your musical example the segments you refer to sound far better played on a clarinet or sax, with the flute on the top part playing all the melody of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

What is it with bassoon players and high instruments? - probably some sort of repressed desire thing where you all actually want to be flute players (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

hehe, you know you're losing the argument when you have to start insulting instruments (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"on woodwind they found that it was more difficult than they expected to get all the notes out - but once they could play all the notes, got used to breathing properly etc. things like vibrato came naturally, and getting really good on the wind instrument was easier for them."

I'm glad you find it so easy, I look forward to seeing you appear as the Sir James of the bassoon soon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
You really need to be careful with subjective terms like 'really good' i mean what in one moment sounds really good might sound absolutely dreadful compared to another recording etc.

I don't find it easy - "...than they expected...once they could...". and "really good" is subjective but it's easier than saying "to a more than reasonable standard with a full tone and able to play anything up to semiquavers at crochet = 1,000,000" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As to getting the notes on stringed instruments being easy you might want to retract it before one of them starts talking about positions - something we can all do without - even if it has been the source of thousands of excellent jokes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) .

tell me about it! "OH MY GOD it's in 50th position OH MY GOD that's SOOO high..." ...and? boo hoo.

P.S. Matt if you are going to continue you only have two sections left to insult before you've got the whole set (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) .

hmm... let's see... oboes... DUCKY DUCK DUCK DUCK DUCK...
umm... clarinets... get some proper reeds, it's like you just FORGOT the other half of them. and play in a proper key too, you're so awkward in Bb...

right then. let's stop hijacking this thread. from the forum rules:

Off-topic Posts
All posts within a thread should have some relevance to the topic of the thread. However, we do appreciate that threads have a natural discussion flow to them, which may move the topic in another direction whilst still maintaining a relationship to the topic of music or music education.

Out of courtesy to other users, members should avoid posting off-topic comments in a discussion thread. This may result in your post being removed, particularly if it stands out as being off-topic compared to other posts within the thread, or if it interferes with a line of otherwise on-topic conversation. These decisions are made at the moderator’s discretion.

[snhs]

this is getting ridiculous but i feel i should respond.

i mean the actual air column that is vibrating in the instrument, not the air that goes in - yes, it might have to put more air in than anything else but because not as much of it is vibrating, to change the note it's vibrating at is easier.

as you admit, a mouthpiece is more sensible - because it makes the air react quicker to any changes you as the player make. it does what you want when you want it instead of having to manipulate a reed.

there have been plenty of attempts and actually heckel did a good job (he pretty much made the modern german bassoon), just that, by design, a big lump of wood is going to be harder to play than a small lump of wood (or metal).

A better question would be what isn't wrong What is it with bassoon players and high instruments? - probably some sort of repressed desire thing where you all actually want to be flute players (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

hehe, you know you're losing the argument when you have to start insulting instruments (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"on woodwind they found that it was more difficult than they expected to get all the notes out - but once they could play all the notes, got used to breathing properly etc. things like vibrato came naturally, and getting really good on the wind instrument was easier for them."

I'm glad you find it so easy, I look forward to seeing you appear as the Sir James of the bassoon soon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
You really need to be careful with subjective terms like 'really good' i mean what in one moment sounds really good might sound absolutely dreadful compared to another recording etc.

I don't find it easy - "...than they expected...once they could...". and "really good" is subjective but it's easier than saying "to a more than reasonable standard with a full tone and able to play anything up to semiquavers at crochet = 1,000,000" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

tell me about it! "OH MY GOD it's in 50th position OH MY GOD that's SOOO high..." ...and? boo hoo.

hmm... let's see... oboes... DUCKY DUCK DUCK DUCK DUCK...
umm... clarinets... get some proper reeds, it's like you just FORGOT the other half of them. and play in a proper key too, you're so awkward in Bb...

right then. let's stop hijacking this thread. from the forum rules:

Off-topic Posts
All posts within a thread should have some relevance to the topic of the thread. However, we do appreciate that threads have a natural discussion flow to them, which may move the topic in another direction whilst still maintaining a relationship to the topic of music or music education.

Out of courtesy to other users, members should avoid posting off-topic comments in a discussion thread. This may result in your post being removed, particularly if it stands out as being off-topic compared to other posts within the thread, or if it interferes with a line of otherwise on-topic conversation. These decisions are made at the moderator�€™s discretion.

Right in reverse order and with apologies to the Conciliation Department of the All Musicians Are Equally Wonderful Association it was actually perfectly on topic. The original poster asked for advice on whether he should take up a new instrument this was answered in the paragraph commencing "back on topic" from my last post. Furthermore it would be unfair to expect the poster to make a decision based on some of the false information you are supplying this hence mandates a response to correct these errors.

On the penultimate relevant point i would suggest that while it may be easier for you it is inaccurate and is a point which could easily cause misunderstandings.

I wasn't actually insulting anyone/thing I was just pointing out some of the things i consider to be flawed with it as you requested. That opening was followed with several examplers of problems with the instrument itself and with the only repertoire you referenced for it being beneficial. The second segment - relating to a separate statement by the way - was an observation based on your derogatory comments towards the piccolo and offering a plausible explanation for it. I at no point asserted that it ws my own view.
Furthermore if losing an argument hinges on "when you have to start insulting instruments (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) " then you had lost before we even began (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) as i'm sure you are aware.

Well if Heckel did that good a job then you should have no room to complain as i originally stated. In addition your assertion that larger instruments are inherently "harder to play" is disproved by such examples as the flute and piccolo where the piccolo is more difficult to play due to the greater air pressure etc required.

In both scenarios you highlight a change is required while in the case of reeds you must manipulate the reed itself with the flute you must manipulate the airstream which is arguably far more difficult as there are far more places to direct the air unlike the reed where you have a far narrower aperture. N.B. I did qualify the statement by arguably - it is not my view per se.

On your first point i do not presume to be an expert on air dynamics within wind instruments (although it might make a good adv. higher physics project (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ) but from my limited understanding the air is directed into both instruments then keys are used to change notes - not much difference there then - and both instruments play at the same frequency so the air must be vibrating at approximately the same rate. Logic would suggest that as the flute uses more air there is more of it vibrating - although i am not asserting that as fact.

Now could your please take your own advice and get back on topic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DrumKat]

Percussion is a really good idea. Not only is it really fun, but it will also help with your other instruments. Trust me, I'm telling you this from experience; percussion has made rhythms much easier for me to pick up. Whoever said that you don't need to buy anything is wrong though as, at some point, you will have to buy your own sticks.

[sonataform]

... the Conciliation Department of the All Musicians Are Equally Wonderful Association ...

... is under threat of closure due to lack of support (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Whoever said that you don't need to buy anything is wrong though as, at some point, you will have to buy your own sticks.

It was me and I apologise. I should have said that you *probably* won't have to buy anything *to begin with* in that most of the equipment will *generally* be available to you when you start. That would include sticks, but yes, you'd have to get some of your own eventually (though they're not expensive).

Of all percussionists I would imagine that kit players would be the ones who would be most likely to have to start investing in instruments first, but I would welcome DrumKat's opinion on that.

[DrumKat]

[

Whoever said that you don't need to buy anything is wrong though as, at some point, you will have to buy your own sticks.

It was me and I apologise. I should have said that you *probably* won't have to buy anything *to begin with* in that most of the equipment will *generally* be available to you when you start. That would include sticks, but yes, you'd have to get some of your own eventually (though they're not expensive).

Of all percussionists I would imagine that kit players would be the ones who would be most likely to have to start investing in instruments first, but I would welcome DrumKat's opinion on that.

Sorry - I wasn't getting at you! Sticks are not expensive compared to other instruments, but the price does mount up when you have to get sticks for all the different instruments (about £150, I'd say). You're probably right about kit players having to invest in instruments first, unless there's a kit at school or something which you have time to practise on. If you were to concentrate more on orchestral percussion, snare drums aren't too expensive, but the price of tuned percussion is ridiculously high! (You wouldn't really need to buy any tuned percussion if you didn't want, though). If you don't want to buy a snare drum, you can just buy a pad, which costs about £10, and is good to practise on.

[cle_ment]

hi! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
maybe u can try clarinet..
its sound is great and can be jazz instrument! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

okay, about flute, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
i don't agree flute is only for girls..
it's can be for boys too i think
its sound is great too for jazz or classical! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

now, the choice is in u?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
clarinet or flute?

[Kate]

Just to back up what everyone else said: If you want to go to Music college then you don't need any other instrument than your principal study. Though piano looks good and I know all non pianists do have to play piano at RAM auditions. Grades are no object and they call everyone for audition who applies. However, you do have to play to Grade 8 Distinction/DipABRSM to stand a chance of getting in. Bear in mind examiners can't comment on your technique so your technique may not be so good and you could have Grade 8 Distinction anyway. Technique isn't a great big issue, but obviously if it's past 4 years fixing then they won't take you - They can teach technique but not musicality.

Any about another instrument - go for something you like the sound of, after all you'll have to listen to it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[katsmile]

Hi!

I was going to add a very similar thread to basically ask the same question, but instead I am going to add to this one.
I am a bass guitar player, a clarinnetist and a sax player (sop and tenor) and I am also looking for another instrument to play. I have decided, that i am going to learn the oboe.

However- I am only 21, and I am not a musical genius on any of my instruments. I can play grade 6 pieces on the clarinet and sax, but I am not really interested in the theory. I play instruments because I love the learning process and being able to make a sound that is pleasing to me (I also play in worship bands at the church that I work at). For me, learnign an instrument is not all about exams and grades. One day, I might get a proper teacher and take exams, but for now I am just happy learning.

I do know though that I can only learn woodwind instruments in this manner. I attempted to learn the violin once.... I picked up the clarinet on a whim one day after teaching myself sax, and now I can play. Oboe is going to be a whole new challenge though...

[erard]

One option that no one has mentioned is to take up the recorder; it is not a modern orchestral instrument, but very useful if you can see yourself ever teaching kids. The instrument's reputation suffers from the effect of primary school groups on the small ones, but it is a versatile and lovely instrument. I really like having an instrument I can take anywhere and have no concerns about damaging. Why not get a good quality plastic treble (for instance a Yamaha at about £20) and just see how you take to it and wind instruments in general?

[lizbun]

Erm... So what's your plan about taking up a new instrument Heslop01?