Any Other Ideas..., ...for an odd brass tone Options

[After Eight]

I have a pupil whose tone on cornet was not helped by his mouthpiece. I moved him to a DW4B which is generally a good all rounder. We have done buzzing with, and without the mouthpiece, and he is starting to get a fairly good control over it, buzzing simple tunes.

However when he plays the cornet, anything above a G/A comes out fuzzy. I've worked on his tonguing because I think it is the attack of the note which is a little lacking, and that too has got a bit stronger. If he plays a C scale legato, most of his notes have a fairly good clean tone, but when he starts tonguing the note, then it all starts to sound 'untuneful(!)'. I've also worked on his breathing, but that seems to be a little counterproductive now since he is now playing louder to get all his notes to come out.

I'm starting to feel a bit inadequate now because I can't sort this tone problem out. He is very keen and seems completely unaware of the sound he is producing. He has played a C scale slowly and all the notes have been lovely but then it goes completely out of the window when it comes to playing a tune.

Any tips/advice would be very gratefully received!!

[daztan]

Hi
How old is he? and how long has he been playing? and is he totally attached to the cornet?

I have a few suggestions to help...

In my opinion he will not make an attempt to change until he realises the problem - harsh I know!! Try recording him, you don't have to tell him that he is playing, but ask him to tell you what you think of the sound, does he like it etc, then politely drop the bomb shell on him - that is why I ask how old and how long he has been playing, if he is young, you may want to hold back on this one.
You may want to try; I knew a trumpet teacher (he was one of the best pros) that made his pupils buzz on a tuba mouthpiece because if they could hold pitch on that then they could do it better on a trumpet mouthpiece.
You may also want to try - if you haven't already starting each note with the breathe, instead of the tongue, it wont be a clean sound, and then introduce the tongue back into it - sometimes works!

The reason I ask about the cornet - as a last resort a bigger mouthpiece instrument, might be a solution - how high can he play?

And finally, don't feel inadequate - a lot of pupils don't associate technique from part of the lesson, with playing a piece - try pointing the obvious out to him - what he did in the scale he needs to do in this.

Hope that helps, at least it might open up some more discussion

[jenny]

Hi
How old is he? and how long has he been playing? and is he totally attached to the cornet?

I have a few suggestions to help...

In my opinion he will not make an attempt to change until he realises the problem - harsh I know!! Try recording him, you don't have to tell him that he is playing, but ask him to tell you what you think of the sound, does he like it etc, then politely drop the bomb shell on him - that is why I ask how old and how long he has been playing, if he is young, you may want to hold back on this one.
You may want to try; I knew a trumpet teacher (he was one of the best pros) that made his pupils buzz on a tuba mouthpiece because if they could hold pitch on that then they could do it better on a trumpet mouthpiece.
You may also want to try - if you haven't already starting each note with the breathe, instead of the tongue, it wont be a clean sound, and then introduce the tongue back into it - sometimes works!

The reason I ask about the cornet - as a last resort a bigger mouthpiece instrument, might be a solution - how high can he play?

And finally, don't feel inadequate - a lot of pupils don't associate technique from part of the lesson, with playing a piece - try pointing the obvious out to him - what he did in the scale he needs to do in this.

Hope that helps, at least it might open up some more discussion

I have a pupil whose tone on cornet was not helped by his mouthpiece. I moved him to a DW4B which is generally a good all rounder. We have done buzzing with, and without the mouthpiece, and he is starting to get a fairly good control over it, buzzing simple tunes.

However when he plays the cornet, anything above a G/A comes out fuzzy. I've worked on his tonguing because I think it is the attack of the note which is a little lacking, and that too has got a bit stronger. If he plays a C scale legato, most of his notes have a fairly good clean tone, but when he starts tonguing the note, then it all starts to sound 'untuneful(!)'. I've also worked on his breathing, but that seems to be a little counterproductive now since he is now playing louder to get all his notes to come out.

I'm starting to feel a bit inadequate now because I can't sort this tone problem out. He is very keen and seems completely unaware of the sound he is producing. He has played a C scale slowly and all the notes have been lovely but then it goes completely out of the window when it comes to playing a tune.

Any tips/advice would be very gratefully received!!

I just saw your post and told my husband about it (he's a brass expert) and his immediate reaction was to try changing your student on to a bigger instrument.

[After Eight]

Thanks for your replies.
Unfortunately I can't change his instrument. He started having lessons at school before he came to me, so he effectively now has two teachers a week. The peri at the school talked most of her kids into buying new instruments, so he now has a shiny new cornet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

He's a great kid and I really want this to work for him but it feels like we lurch from week to week with the same problems. I'll try the breathing thing when I see him tomorrow so will let you know.

[Malone]

Does he have big lips?! Have you tried using the Kelly clear mouthpieces? You would be able to see his lips through the mouthpiece in case he is unconsiously changing the shape of his lips in the higher notes. Or you could try a bigger cup size?

Perhaps he is not keeping the air pressure up? If he keeps the air pressure and only stops the sound with his tongue, then he wont loose his place in the ascending lip patterns thing... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) not sure that made sense. Just like doing a legato scale but making the tongue get in the way of the air between notes... Ok, I'll shut up, even I've lost myself... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[Alison]

I learnt the trumpet for many years when I was at school, and struggled to make a good sound. My teacher was nearly despairing. She thought I was going to fail grade five, but I got a merit because the examiner put everything down to nerves. Then she got a friend of hers who is a high-up brass person to come and listen to me, and he suggested changing mouthpiece and teacher! So I had a new teacher and a new mouthpiece, which helped a bit but despite this I failed my grade 6 because the examiner refused to pass anything due to the poor quality of sound. So there we are. Basically, my mouth is the wrong shape, and there was not much I could do about it. BUT I still had fun and enjoyed playing in orchestras etc. Whether I would have liked to have been told at the beginning that I was never going to be any good, I don't know. My parents think I should have been.

The one thing I found did help, was practising everything just on the mouthpiece - I think this forced me to be much more accurate with my mouth shape.

I don't know if this is of any use at all, but it may be that ultimately there's not much you can do - it's not your teaching, just his mouth!

[kate bush fan]

I learnt the trumpet for many years when I was at school, and struggled to make a good sound. My teacher was nearly despairing. She thought I was going to fail grade five, but I got a merit because the examiner put everything down to nerves. Then she got a friend of hers who is a high-up brass person to come and listen to me, and he suggested changing mouthpiece and teacher! So I had a new teacher and a new mouthpiece, which helped a bit but despite this I failed my grade 6 because the examiner refused to pass anything due to the poor quality of sound. So there we are. Basically, my mouth is the wrong shape, and there was not much I could do about it. BUT I still had fun and enjoyed playing in orchestras etc. Whether I would have liked to have been told at the beginning that I was never going to be any good, I don't know. My parents think I should have been.

The one thing I found did help, was practising everything just on the mouthpiece - I think this forced me to be much more accurate with my mouth shape.

I don't know if this is of any use at all, but it may be that ultimately there's not much you can do - it's not your teaching, just his mouth!

What do you mean by your mouth being the wrong shape?

I had terrible tone as a teenager and gave up for that reason. When I restarted as an adult it was a lot better and I think it was because I had a better idea of the sound I needed to produce - I think the sandoval books are great for this - he mainly uses Arban but the CD recordings are really useful. No brass expert myself - can't explain what happened with my tone, only other thing I can think of is that my throat is a lot more open now and I breathe properly.

[Alison]

What do you mean by your mouth being the wrong shape?

My mouth just isn't designed for playing trumpets. I knew what sound I was aiming at, but really really struggled to get it. And if I didn't play for a few days my lip would give up very quickly which made things even worse.

Playing any instrument is a very physical thing. Some people's fingers find it very hard to coordinate - this is obvious when teaching the recorder, it must be even more so when teaching stringed instruments. If they practise like mad they will get a lot better, but may never be able to play as well as someone with very good finger coordination. Similarly, everyone's mouths are made differently and some people's are better designed for playing brass instruments.

There's nothing wrong in this. It would be very boring if we were all made the same. But not all differences in achievement are down to the amount of practise and motivation and "musicality" - some of it has a physical cause.

[kate bush fan]

[quote name='Alison' date='Jul 6 2007, 02:52 PM' post='547383']
[quote name='kate bush fan' post='547205' date='Jul 6 2007, 10:30 AM']


What do you mean by your mouth being the wrong shape?


[/quote]

My mouth just isn't designed for playing trumpets. I knew what sound I was aiming at, but really really struggled to get it. And if I didn't play for a few days my lip would give up very quickly which made things even worse.

Playing any instrument is a very physical thing. Some people's fingers find it very hard to coordinate - this is obvious when teaching the recorder, it must be even more so when teaching stringed instruments. If they practise like mad they will get a lot better, but may never be able to play as well as someone with very good finger coordination. Similarly, everyone's mouths are made differently and some people's are better designed for playing brass instruments.

Yes but have you tried again as an adult? I still don't understand what you mean about your mouth not being designed for trumpet - what is an ideal trumpet mouth?

[sarah-flute]

Yes but have you tried again as an adult? I still don't understand what you mean about your mouth not being designed for trumpet - what is an ideal trumpet mouth?

Would you have a problem believing that one person could make a beautiful sound singing without training, and another might still struggle to make QUITE as beautiful a sound even with lessons? (The trained one may be making the sound in a healthier way, of course, but it doesn't mean they will sound as good as someone who has been naturally blessed with a beautiful voice. Or they may sound as good but only after 10 years of hard work on their voice)

Many teenaged flautists really struggle when they get braces - why? Because it changes the shape of the mouth! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Surely this is similar?

I am not a brass player, but it seems logical that some will find it easier, some harder, to make a beautiful sound... we all have differently shaped mouths and different resonating chambers in our heads and bodies (part of why our voices all sound different, if I understand correctly). I'm sure that, as with singing or flute playing, it's possible to improve the sound one can create, but it's not such a leap to say that there may be some people who naturally produce a good sound, most people will need to work at it, and some people will have to work really hard or may not be able to ever produce quite the sound they want.

I assume this is what Alison is suggesting. I've no expertise to say if she's right or not, but we have no problems believing that people have different voices even if they have done exactly the same training, and that effectively changing the shape of the mouth with braces can adversely effect flute tone, so with such a physical instrument as a trumpet, it seems reasonable that some people may struggle much more than average to get a good sound.

(And it also seems likely/usual that someone who naturally makes a good sound will enjoy the instrument more than someone who struggles terribly: and we tend to carry on with things we truly enjoy. So it could well be self perpetuating.)

[kate bush fan]

Yes it does worry me if someone loves an instrument that they might be discouraged and think they are incapable of ever playing it just because of ideas the teacher has about what makes a good trumpet mouth.(and I am still not sure exactly what a good mouth is for a brass instrument) this is a not the same issue as braces, which are temporary and obviously can cause a problem. We don't actually know fully what physical attributes we need for an instrument and surely with breathing etc a lot of physical problems are caused by how we feel mentally. I think we should air on the side of encouragement - its a dangerous trap to blame someone's physical attributes rather than examining our own teaching and I hate the idea of teachers deciding if a student is "suitable" before letting them even start.

[Alison]

Yes, I totally agree.

But the original poster was feeling inadequate as a teacher because of the pupil's tone. And all I was trying to say was that it may not be either the teacher OR the pupil's fault.

[After Eight]

Thanks for your replies. I've had a couple of lessons with the kid since the first posting, and his tone is finally beginning to improve. It's very steady but we're trying not to get too carried away!! We've made sure that his lower notes are good and solid before introducing pieces with notes up to 'C' in them. The only problem this presents is that he would like to take grade one, and he is certainly more than capable of it, but his tone is letting him down on the higher notes.

I know exactly what you mean about the wrong mouth shape. I had been playing flute for years before a pro-flute player pointed out to me in a workshop that my embouchure hole was off centre and therefore I "would obviously have to align the flute with the hole and thereby making the flute off centre". I was told that there is nothing I can do about where the hole between my lips appears so I just had to get used to having the flute in a slightly different position. We're only talking millimetres here rather than a centimetre, but it makes a difference, and it's the same with the trumpet. If I have the mouthpiece right in the middle, the tone is slightly muffled, but move it to the side a bit then it's a whole lot clearer! Silly isn't it!?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) but it works.

Also know what you mean Sarah-Flute. I like running, but with all the will in the world I'll never be a Paula Radcliffe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[sarah-flute]

I know exactly what you mean about the wrong mouth shape. I had been playing flute for years before a pro-flute player pointed out to me in a workshop that my embouchure hole was off centre and therefore I "would obviously have to align the flute with the hole and thereby making the flute off centre". I was told that there is nothing I can do about where the hole between my lips appears so I just had to get used to having the flute in a slightly different position. We're only talking millimetres here rather than a centimetre, but it makes a difference, and it's the same with the trumpet. If I have the mouthpiece right in the middle, the tone is slightly muffled, but move it to the side a bit then it's a whole lot clearer! Silly isn't it!?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) but it works.

Strangely enough, some advocate an offcentre embouchure for people who don't actually have a problem with a central one...!

Also know what you mean Sarah-Flute. I like running, but with all the will in the world I'll never be a Paula Radcliffe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) exactly!