Untalented Student Options

[Lemontree]

I wonder if any of you ever had a student completely untalented for music. What did you do with the student? Did you tell him or her that it is a waste of time? Did you let them find out themselves? Did you manage to get them to a, well, "satisfying" level?

[Hils]

I wonder if any of you ever had a student completely untalented for music. What did you do with the student? Did you tell him or her that it is a waste of time? Did you let them find out themselves? Did you manage to get them to a, well, "satisfying" level?

Define talent!

[jacobvaneyck]

I simply get them to do what they can. Even a simple tune can be as big an achievement to the less talented as us doing a diploma piece. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They may even have some musical talent a teacher can unlock for them.

Maybe you can be more specific.

[Lemontree]

Well, I guess with music it is more difficult for me to define "talent". However, the idea of "talented" students occurred to me since I am having an art student currently, who, obviously, has a major problem when it comes to "talent". I guess, you could transfer it as tone deaf when it comes to music.

There is a talent, which can actually be meassured, of ones ability to see geometric forms for example. She seems to lack that talent completely. Since she is an architect it seems to be quite a bad joke. And I try to work with her to get her to being able to draw architectural sketches. It seems quite a bit of a waste of time and money to tell the truth.

So, I wondered. Did you ever stumble across that sort of student and what did you do?

[Digby]

There's a very big difference between untalented and unmotivated.

There was a documentary on a while back with Vanessa Mae where they were discussing the Nature v Nurture idea and essentially yes you need the talent and drive to succeed but most international performers have put in somewhere in the region of 10000 hours practise by their mid teens. Now if a student put in the same effort but did not have the natural talent to accompany it, they will never be the absolute best - but they will certainly be a more than competant player.

Yes I've certainly had students who do not have that natural flair, some haven't worked because they found it hard and have fallen by the wayside very early on, others put in the effort and make steady albeit slow progress and whilst they will never be achieving distinctions I take tremendous pride in exam passes and the enjoyment that they get from being able to play pieces they have always wanted to play, or the parents expressions seeing them perform at concerts.

[Dugazon]

I agree with Digby. I have/had students whom you would call 'gifted'. However, they don't/didn't get anywhere and/or gave up singing pretty quickly because they were not prepared to put in the effort.

Then you also get the ones who are maybe less gifted, but really work hard, and they get further than the so called 'gifted ones'. Yes, they might be lacking that certain spark that separates an average singer from a good or even worldclass singer, but they are still doing well, also many of them started out barely being able to hold a tune.

I don't like the term 'untalented', I find it somewhat degrading. I'd rather say it in a positive way, although the result is probably the same: You get people who are exceptionally gifted, and you get the ones who need to work harder. You very rarely come across the ones who don't learn, don't improve or don't grasp it at all IF they are prepared to put the work in. If a student does not understand, it is not necessarily the student who is untalented - it is sometimes also the teacher who just cannot explain things properly for this student's needs ...

[Juniper]

I agree with Digby. I have/had students whom you would call 'gifted'. However, they don't/didn't get anywhere and/or gave up singing pretty quickly because they were not prepared to put in the effort.

Then you also get the ones who are maybe less gifted, but really work hard, and they get further than the so called 'gifted ones'. Yes, they might be lacking that certain spark that separates an average singer from a good or even worldclass singer, but they are still doing well, also many of them started out barely being able to hold a tune.

I don't like the term 'untalented', I find it somewhat degrading. I'd rather say it in a positive way, although the result is probably the same: You get people who are exceptionally gifted, and you get the ones who need to work harder. You very rarely come across the ones who don't learn, don't improve or don't grasp it at all IF they are prepared to put the work in. If a student does not understand, it is not necessarily the student who is untalented - it is sometimes also the teacher who just cannot explain things properly for this student's needs ...

I am so glad you said that. At the tender age of 7 I was told I'd never be a trumpet player by my first teacher! Ok it took me a while but now I play at gigs regularly and have been 'headhunted' for want of a better word twice in the last fortnight so though I wouldn't say I'm great I can certainly hold my own!!! I got the last laugh a couple of years back when I saw him. He said 'what happened I hear you got good' I said ' yeah, I found a good teacher!' So from experience, I would say never give up on somebody because you feel they are 'untalented' :-)

[dolce@piano]

Although I like the politically correct idea that everyone can achieve and talent is a lot about opportunity and motivation etc., it is certainly true that some find it a lot easier than others.

I too have 'talented' kids who don't achieve as much as they 'should' because they're idle/used to it being simple and very 'average' kids who go on to be fine little players.

However, in answer to Lemontree, I once had one girl who learnt piano for a year and found every single thing about playing the piano terribly difficult. It wasn't for lack of trying, it just was that nothing came easily to her, in fact quite the opposite.

As a parent I felt very sorry for her and I know that towards then end of the year she was only carrying on and trying because she wanted to please her mum and me.

At the end of the year I let her know gently that it wouldn't upset me if she stopped and I'd have a little word with her mum. I honestly think it was the right thing to do, for everyone.

[astrakhan]

I think in this case it depends what your student's ultimate goal is. Is it to pass exams? In any case, if you are able to meet her needs, then you should do so. If you cannot, you should be straight with her. As long as she is getting what she wants out of your lessons, I don't see the problem. If she isn't, then you both need to talk about what to do.

Good luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Martin Clarke]

I agree that it's very much about finding out the student's aspirations and doing your best to meet those. Sometimes, it can also be about finding out their parents' aspirations for them and trying to reach a balance between the two. There may be a particular piece that the student really wants to play. I have a teenage student who started to learn piano comparatively late, and sometimes gets frustrated that his brain can cope with the demands of a piece better than his fingers can. After a little time, it became clear that bluesy pieces appealed to him, so I did some work on blues improvisation - some free melodic work, but some more structured with a left hand ostinato. He also wanted to play a favourite song so I produced a simple arrangement of it for him, which he responded really well to. Being able to achieve those things has now spurred him on to work a bit harder and with a bit more patience towards his next exam.

[jch48]

Pupil realised Mum was talking to me as he went into the house
"Your Mum was asking how you're getting on"
"I said fine"
"How do you feel you're getting on?"
"Well - I don't know anyone to compare myself with"
I felt sad and talked about enjoyment and he agreed he enjoyed lessons etc. It's not my place to challenge a family ethos, but he does sometimes look as if the world's on his shoulders and whenever I play something live or a recording his eyes light up.
And one of my most rewarding and hard-working pupils (g1 at 12ish) also enjoys her music. I know that others will progress faster and she may hit a ceiling - don't we all.
Yet another with seemingly plenty of ability but no appetite for work - 7 days ago I wrote 'this piece is no better than last week', this week it was fantastic. I never needed that kind of a push and so find it hard to understand and so find this pupil hard to get the best from.

[Alison]

I too tend to take the view that if someone is learning, however hard they find it they can still achieve something, and am willing to take them as far as they can go.
However, I wonder if we might to better on occasion to suggest people switch to a different instrument? I struggled to play the trumpet for 6 years at school - I assumed for the first few years that it was just a difficult instrument and everyone had the same problems as I did. Later my teacher told my parents that she thought I would give up after the first term because I found it so hard to get a decent note. I now realise that my mouth might have been far better suited to a larger instrument - and if someone had suggested this after a term or two I'm sure I would have switched, and who knows - may have done much better. It took until I was 27 to find an instrument I could play happily. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[moondad]

I have come to view students who struggle like this as an opportunity to refine my teaching skills - I find I learn far more in helping them to overcome their difficulties than I do with students who find it easy, and I'd sooner work with a student like this than someone who is talented but unmotivated.

[astrakhan]

But does your question regard music or architecture, Lemontree? *confused*

[Digby]

I have come to view students who struggle like this as an opportunity to refine my teaching skills - I find I learn far more in helping them to overcome their difficulties than I do with students who find it easy, and I'd sooner work with a student like this than someone who is talented but unmotivated.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)