Early Music Trill Question, style, taste or convention? Options

[Cadence]

I'm playing Bach's Partita No. 2 in C Minor.

Generally, I lean more towards romantic and contemporary music and when I've been to masterclasses and lectures, I've tended to go to ones on later repertoire. This is, I suppose, the first major early work (before the Classical period) that I have taken on.

Now I have a question about trills and how they should be played in this style. It's actually quite a specific question, but I guess it would apply to other pieces too:

In bar 29 of the Sinfonia, at the end of the first section - the bar directly before the abrupt change to the fugue - the trill in the right hand starts on F#. It is preceeded by an A and followed by a G.

Should the first note of the trill be a G, or the written F#?

I know its written as F#, but I have a vague feeling that a G should be played at the starting note of the trill despite that, as a matter of style/convention, because the note directly preceeding it is the Ab. Is this right or wrong? Or is it purely a matter of taste and what you like the sound of? Does it even really matter? (I suspect it may!)

Thanks to anyone who has some insight,
C x

P.S.: I'm using the Henle Verlag edition.

[piano*cello*sax*boy]

I don't know this particular piece, but when playing other Bach I have been taught to go from the upper note, so I would play the G as the starting note of the trill. I don't see that it would differ between different Bach pieces, I thought that it is the same for trills up untill the early 20th century, although i may be wrong.

[Cadence]

I don't know this particular piece, but when playing other Bach I have been taught to go from the upper note, so I would play the G as the starting note of the trill. I don't see that it would differ between different Bach pieces, I thought that it is the same for trills up untill the early 20th century, although i may be wrong.

Is it a rule to go from the upper note? Depending on the situation, I sometimes go from the lower note, if that sounds better.

In this case, it sounds good from the G or F#, only that it is the F# that is written.

[jch48]

I have Peters ed and am struggling to line this up.
Partita No2 in c minor, mvmt 1, has 3 sections
1. Grave (French overture style double dot or not decision? and whether to arpeggiate the some chords)
2. 'Andante' (don't know it this is an editorial marking)
3. untitled fugato section

the bar before the fugato is 29 in my edition - there is no a-flat. both 'trills' are marked a mordants, but I think both are usually and should be played as trills starting on the upper note. In such cadential cases the upper note is dissonant to the harmony and starting/dwelling on it emphasis this.

[sarah123]

I don't know the piece in question but the general rule for pre-classical music is to start the trill from the note above. I think there is an exception where you start the trill on the note (possibly if the note before was the note above?), but that doesn't happen very often.

[Mad Tom]

I'm playing Bach's Partita No. 2 in C Minor.
Now I have a question about trills and how they should be played in this style. It's actually quite a specific question, but I guess it would apply to other pieces too:

Should the first note of the trill be a G, or the written F#?

The PURPOSE of a trill in Baroque keyboard music was:

1. Create emphasis (on Harpsichord or Organ where varying the volume is not possible)
2. Prolong a note on an instrument of limited sustaining power (Harpsichord, Clavier)
3. Decoration

Emphasis can be created by a momentary dissonance, hence the convention of starting a trill on the upper auxiliary note. For other purposes it is just as effective whatever note it starts on.

On a modern piano trills are no longer necessary for reason 1. A note is easily emphasized by playing it a little louder. So there is no good musical reason for a rule that says always start on the upper note. The reason we might choose to use such a rule is to create an authentic Baroque 'feel' to the music, and that is related to the expectations of the audience based on what they have heard before, what they have been told, and accepted as truth, and historical research into what performers actually did back in the late 1600's and early 1700's.

It all depends on what you, the performer, are trying to achieve in your interpretation.

[sarah123]

I'm playing Bach's Partita No. 2 in C Minor.
Now I have a question about trills and how they should be played in this style. It's actually quite a specific question, but I guess it would apply to other pieces too:

Should the first note of the trill be a G, or the written F#?

The PURPOSE of a trill in Baroque keyboard music was:

1. Create emphasis (on Harpsichord or Organ where varying the volume is not possible)
2. Prolong a note on an instrument of limited sustaining power (Harpsichord, Clavier)
3. Decoration

Emphasis can be created by a momentary dissonance, hence the convention of starting a trill on the upper auxiliary note. For other purposes it is just as effective whatever note it starts on.

On a modern piano trills are no longer necessary for reason 1. A note is easily emphasized by playing it a little louder. So there is no good musical reason for a rule that says always start on the upper note.

You would lose the dissonance if you played it the other way round. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Mad Tom]

You would lose the dissonance if you played it the other way round. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Which on a modern piano:

- does not matter if the purpose is purely emphasis, as you can use extra volume for emphasis
- does matter if emphasis through dissonance is part of your concept of a "correct" baroque style

[Cadence]

The PURPOSE of a trill in Baroque keyboard music was:

1. Create emphasis (on Harpsichord or Organ where varying the volume is not possible)
2. Prolong a note on an instrument of limited sustaining power (Harpsichord, Clavier)
3. Decoration

Emphasis can be created by a momentary dissonance, hence the convention of starting a trill on the upper auxiliary note. For other purposes it is just as effective whatever note it starts on.

On a modern piano trills are no longer necessary for reason 1. A note is easily emphasized by playing it a little louder. So there is no good musical reason for a rule that says always start on the upper note. The reason we might choose to use such a rule is to create an authentic Baroque 'feel' to the music, and that is related to the expectations of the audience based on what they have heard before, what they have been told, and accepted as truth, and historical research into what performers actually did back in the late 1600's and early 1700's.

It all depends on what you, the performer, are trying to achieve in your interpretation.

These are very good points, and give me something to think about - maybe it doesn't need to start on the upper note, as a piano does not use trills for emphasis, but rather for decoration and perhaps a Baroque "feel".

As I am playing the trill because I think it sounds prettier with it, that suggests I'm playing it purely for decorative reasons, meaning that maybe it is not imperative to start on the upper note?

I have Peters ed and am struggling to line this up.
Partita No2 in c minor, mvmt 1, has 3 sections
1. Grave (French overture style double dot or not decision? and whether to arpeggiate the some chords)
2. 'Andante' (don't know it this is an editorial marking)
3. untitled fugato section

the bar before the fugato is 29 in my edition - there is no a-flat. both 'trills' are marked a mordants, but I think both are usually and should be played as trills starting on the upper note. In such cadential cases the upper note is dissonant to the harmony and starting/dwelling on it emphasis this.

My mistake, sorry yes - b.29 is the bar directly preceeding the fugue section and the note is an A, not an Ab.

I wrote the post late last night and wasn't reading straight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I've correctly it in my original post.

[Digby]

As a general rule - start on the upper note of a trill up until about Haydn. This does mean that if you choose to start on the lower note, to anyone who knows the piece it will sound wrong, it also doesn't always fit right.

It is worth getting the book Keyboard Interpretation by Howard Ferguson.

[Cadence]

I should probably mention also (which I completely forgot about when I made the post but having now played it I remembered) that another reason I'm doubtful about starting on the upper note in this instance is that the trill starts on a chord - does that affect it or make a difference in the decision at all?

[YetAnotherPianist]

In bar 29 of the Sinfonia, at the end of the first section - the bar directly before the abrupt change to the fugue - the trill in the right hand starts on F#. It is preceeded by an A and followed by a G.

Should the first note of the trill be a G, or the written F#?

With reference to the original manuscript, under pain of death, you must start on the upper note. The ornament Bach's used here is the one shown in the bottom right of:

http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/bach/ornaments.jpg

As you can see, it's not just a normal trillo. The vertical line to the left of the the ornament, extending upwards, specifically indicates that the ornament begins with the upper note held for a short amount of time. As such, it's (usefully) more precise than the usual 'put a twiddle here', which raises the sort of discussion you can see above. I'd encourage you to grab a copy of the Bärenreiter edition of the Sechs Partiten, which preserves these ornament symbols - if you're putting the practice time into these works, it's worth putting just a small amount of your time into becoming familiar with the range of ornaments Bach used, so there's less sitting between you and his intentions.

Regarding the note falling on a chord - partly this is irrelevant given the specific ornament used. However, even if it was a Trillo, it would still be okay to start on the upper note - think voices, not chords, and it's an extension of the soprano part that comes before it.

[Cadence]

In bar 29 of the Sinfonia, at the end of the first section - the bar directly before the abrupt change to the fugue - the trill in the right hand starts on F#. It is preceeded by an A and followed by a G.

Should the first note of the trill be a G, or the written F#?

With reference to the original manuscript, under pain of death, you must start on the upper note. The ornament Bach's used here is the one shown in the bottom right of:

http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/bach/ornaments.jpg

As you can see, it's not just a normal trillo. The vertical line to the left of the the ornament, extending upwards, specifically indicates that the ornament begins with the upper note held for a short amount of time. As such, it's (usefully) more precise than the usual 'put a twiddle here', which raises the sort of discussion you can see above. I'd encourage you to grab a copy of the Bärenreiter edition of the Sechs Partiten, which preserves these ornament symbols - if you're putting the practice time into these works, it's worth putting just a small amount of your time into becoming familiar with the range of ornaments Bach used, so there's less sitting between you and his intentions.

Regarding the note falling on a chord - partly this is irrelevant given the specific ornament used. However, even if it was a Trillo, it would still be okay to start on the upper note - think voices, not chords, and it's an extension of the soprano part that comes before it.

Thanks, this is most helpful.

My Henle edition simply has a "tr" above the note, instead of any symbol, which would have made it explicit exactly what was required.

[anacrusis]

I was going to say, if you're playing it for an exam, then the examiner would expect you to trill from the upper note, as that would be idiomatic for Bach's music.

Then I remembered playing in a performance of Bach last year, wincing through the first playthrough as all the strings players failed to do that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif), then later sitting through a baroque workshop for which most of the musicians also didn't know this one. Is it really so little taught, about the baroque trills? A small section of classical musical history maybe, but still a significant one. I know that I'm probably being over fussy, as a baroque specialist, but also cannot remember when I was first taught that the trills were the other way up to classical ones and later.

What I didn't know, until relatively recently, was that very early baroque trills, say from about 1625 or so, are more usually started from the lower note (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) . Arggh! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Maizie]

It's funny because I was always taught trills go from the note above, and it wasn't until much much much later in life, i.e. after my 15+ year hiatus, that I discovered that trills can in fact start on the lower note. Spot the recorderist...
(though now I wonder about any more modern, i.e. not baroque, stuff I played, did they have trills in, and if so was I playing them wrong...)