Natural minor demonstarted on ABRSM web page Options

[linda.ff]

In the exam section of the B website, there is a section dealing with the natural minor. The first written piece used to demonstrate it is Tchaikovsky's Old French Song.

Now, is it just me, or is this a pretty poor choice of example? It's in E minor, and there is just the one D, as part of a sort of mordent in the middle section. But only the melody is shown: surely if you take the entire piece (and isn't it originally for piano?) there are passages throughout that are based on scraps of harmonic or melodic scale.

So if you're demonstratingn the natural minor to someone who already plays this piece, aren't you on to a loser? Just a thought

[flautistphilosoper]

Chaikovsky's Old French Song (which incinentally is originally in G minor) doesn't have any mordents, the figure in 22 isn't a "mordent", but a quaver followed by two semiquavers (a mordert is a type of ornament) and is effectively a demonstratrion of the sound of a natural minor scale.

[owainsutton]

I'd have thought 'sort of mordent' is a reasonable way of describing the written-out gesture which occurs in that bar...

This once again comes across to me as an attempt to shoe-horn the concept of 'natural minor' in where it doesn't fit. The melody they choose demonstrate the use of the melodic minor, and this means there isn't a clash with the theory needed to explain the harmony.

[linda.ff]

Chaikovsky's Old French Song (which incinentally is originally in G minor)

Yes, I know. But I've looked at the web page, which maybe you haven't, and there it's written out in E minor. That's the version I've quoted. And they did put Tchaikovsky's name to it, which does help it to lay claim to some harmonies which aren't shown.

doesn't have any mordents, the figure in 22 isn't a "mordent", but a quaver followed by two semiquavers (a mordert is a type of ornament)

Yes, I know. And I suppose you'll also tell me that an unprepared accented non-essential note falling to a harmonised note is not an appoggiatura, because an appoggiatura is also an ornament. Or that the first four notes of Rondo Alla Turca are not a turn because they're written out.

and is effectively a demonstratrion of the sound of a natural minor scale.

I would have thought that a passage which moves from the dominant up to the tonic incuding both the intervening steps would have done it better. Steps 6 & 7 are where all the funny business happens in minor scales, and it's all about how these notes interact with the tonic or the dominant or both. So actually I don't think a passage which doesn't actually extend as far as the upper tonic demonstrates anything very much about the structure of a scale.

[dolce@piano]

Yes, Linda, I've just looked at the page and find it a very weird choice.

Firstly, yes, it's in E minor - do any other instruments regularly play this piece in E minor ?
Because it's an absolute staple of the piano repertoire but always in G minor, as per the original - I find it really weird to include it in a different key.

And I don;t think it's a very 'natural' minor piece either. As you say, apart from one little moment (call it what you like) it's basically minor but almost as much harmonic as natural.

The other two pieces they've included as non-classical are far better examples.

[Cyrilla]

The other two pieces they've included as non-classical are far better examples.

Agree the Tchaikovsky possibly not the best example but it is very definitely in the natural minor, despite the lack of a top 'la'.

My problem is actually with The Wayfaring Stranger! As a folk song, it obviously has many variations - but it is predominantly a song in a la pentatonic tonality. Many versions of it ARE purely pentatonic and the one quoted on the website page is clearly pentatonic with two fa notes - one of which is purely a passing note.

I did write to the board when the page first went up, pointing out that this was not a good example of a natural minor piece, but I see it's still there...

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[linda.ff]

The other two pieces they've included as non-classical are far better examples.

Agree the Tchaikovsky possibly not the best example but it is very definitely in the natural minor, despite the lack of a top 'la'.

My problem is actually with The Wayfaring Stranger! As a folk song, it obviously has many variations - but it is predominantly a song in a la pentatonic tonality. Many versions of it ARE purely pentatonic and the one quoted on the website page is clearly pentatonic with two fa notes - one of which is purely a passing note.

I did write to the board when the page first went up, pointing out that this was not a good example of a natural minor piece, but I see it's still there...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I think part of the problem is with the perception of the difference between a key and a scale. I once taught theory to a very clever man who was starting completely from scratch, and he would get angry at the slightest thing which he felt wasn't being explained properly (by the books, not just by me) and one of these was that you were taught two different minor scales, but actually only one minor key. I did my best to point out to him that the scales only showed you two different ways of "behaving" in that half of the scale, so no, you didn't get pieces in A harmonic minor or A melodic minor. So, similarly, I don't feel it's right to say a piece is "in the natural minor" - surely that applies more to pieces which are in an aeolian mode? Even in the explanation on the page, and please forgive me but I'm too tired to look it up now, doesn't it suggest that this scale is what's used in pieces that are not in the "classical" major/minor "system"?

I'd say the 6th and 7th in "that" passage behave quite correctly in the melodic minor, since they would only be raised if going all the way up to the tonic through 6 and 7, which they don't, and only lowered (or not-raised, depending on where you start from, please don't let's start that one again just now! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) if going down to the dominant through 7 and 6, which they are.

I've always looked upon this piece as being a model of the harmonic/melodic "behaviour" for want of a better word. The fact that they print it without the harmonies is a little misleading. If they hadn't attributed it to Tchaikovsky, I could have believed there was a different version without the sharpened leading note in the harmony of the cadence at the end.

But... I had a friend on another forum who had been an examiner for years, and he said they used to say AB stood for "Auntie Board" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) There have been many times recently when Auntie got a bee in her bonnet and could not get it out (like the farcical thing about having to say if the second minor scale you played was a different form from the first, just in case the examiner couldn't tell whether you meant to do it or not)

[dolce@piano]

The other two pieces they've included as non-classical are far better examples.

Agree the Tchaikovsky possibly not the best example but it is very definitely in the natural minor, despite the lack of a top 'la'.

My problem is actually with The Wayfaring Stranger! As a folk song, it obviously has many variations - but it is predominantly a song in a la pentatonic tonality. Many versions of it ARE purely pentatonic and the one quoted on the website page is clearly pentatonic with two fa notes - one of which is purely a passing note.

I did write to the board when the page first went up, pointing out that this was not a good example of a natural minor piece, but I see it's still there...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Thanks for that. I was wondering about the pentatonic and whether it was more that but didn't/don't feel on very safe ground.
My choice for the natural minor would have been All the Pretty Little Horses, which I think is quite well-known and seems to me (am I wrong ?) a good natural minor piece.

[owainsutton]

Thanks for that. I was wondering about the pentatonic and whether it was more that but didn't/don't feel on very safe ground.
My choice for the natural minor would have been All the Pretty Little Horses, which I think is quite well-known and seems to me (am I wrong ?) a good natural minor piece.

God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen is another option, with an advantage that it's often set in E minor.

[Cyrilla]

I think God Rest Ye is quoted on the page - agreed, a very good example.

For another folk song I would suggest The Wraggle Taggle Gypsies. I'm still cross that a pentatonic song is cited as being Aeolian.

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