"it Isn't Necessary To Touch Children In Order To Demonstrate Options

[Mad Tom]

On a related note... If you were asked in an exam (say a teaching diploma.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ) about your views on the "no touch policy" what would your response be? To go along with the boards view because you know its the "correct" answer, or put your own views across (obviously only applicable if you disagree with the recent policy) at the risk of your exam?

If they ask me what is MY view then they will get MY view. Why should answering a question truthfully lead to marks being deducted?

[Actually I would probably ask "Do you really want my view, or do you want me to parrot the board's official policy?" ... and that would probably do me no favours with the examiner (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) ]

I thought exams were about what you know and what you can do - not about internalizing a particular POLITICAL point of view. The UK is not (yet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) ) a totalitarian state.

As usual Dulciana has a thoroughly sensible attitude

... They are all so different. Can we not be allowed to be human and judge each scenario on its individuality? ...

[See her entire post on the previous page]

[muzikalbadger]

On a related note... If you were asked in an exam (say a teaching diploma.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ) about your views on the "no touch policy" what would your response be? To go along with the boards view because you know its the "correct" answer, or put your own views across (obviously only applicable if you disagree with the recent policy) at the risk of your exam?

If they ask me what is MY view then they will get MY view. Why should answering a question truthfully lead to marks being deducted?

[Actually I would probably ask "Do you really want my view, or do you want me to parrot the board's official policy?" ... and that would probably do me no favours with the examiner (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) ]

I thought exams were about what you know and what you can do - not about internalizing a particular POLITICAL point of view. The UK is not (yet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) ) a totalitarian state.

As usual Dulciana has a thoroughly sensible attitude

... They are all so different. Can we not be allowed to be human and judge each scenario on its individuality? ...

[See her entire post on the previous page]

I agree with both you, seer green and Dulcianas comments on it all... However it was discussed in detail in my exam, and probably in most teaching dips since the policy came out, and it was very clear what the expected answer was... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (dont know whether I should write that actually since im sure examiners read these... will probably delete later... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) )

[Arundodonuts]

I thought exams were about what you know and what you can do - not about internalizing a particular POLITICAL point of view. The UK is not (yet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) ) a totalitarian state.

Though given the number of new laws that get churned out we're not far off.

As usual Dulciana has a thoroughly sensible attitude

... They are all so different. Can we not be allowed to be human and judge each scenario on its individuality? ...

No we need things to be black and white. New laws, new laws, new laws.........

[Dulciana]

it was discussed in detail in my exam, and probably in most teaching dips since the policy came out, and it was very clear what the expected answer was... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (dont know whether I should write that actually since im sure examiners read these... will probably delete later... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) )

I wouldn't worry about deleting it. In fact I'd definitely leave it here as it might be good to know for anybody doing a teaching dip in the near future. If examiners read here (and I'm sure they do read and occasionally post without us ever knowing they are examiners) they will already know how teachers feel about the subject. In an exam, I doubt (or at least would hope!) that your actual opinion would not lose you marks, as long as you can justify it, as with opinions on all other matters; I would imagine the question is more geared towards finding out whether you are aware of the issue and of the debate surrounding it, as it is so topical, and teachers should probably be aware of what's going on in the world of teaching.

This is sheer conjecture, though, as I am usually a fairly uncynical individual. If this was me, and there was any indication on your report that I lost marks because of this I would take it further!

PS - Even if you do delete the post, my quote won't go away! So if you decide that you do really want to delete it let me know and I can delete mine too - though I do think you leave it.

[maggiemay]

I agree about not deleting it. It is useful (though slightly depressing, I'm sorry to say).

Am I allowed to say that it seems a great pity that politics this stuff is apparently finding its way into examinations?

[briantrumpet]

An interesting view from another thread:

I am in my 30s and was never hit by a piano teacher. She did however bend my fingers back on themselves if I consistently played wrong notes (which I did.) [...] Strangely enough - the only physical contact with teachers that bothered me was my singing teacher's insistence on holding my hand over her stomach to feel her breathing. For some reason that make me feel very uncomfortable.

[Seer_Green]

An interesting view from another thread:

I am in my 30s and was never hit by a piano teacher. She did however bend my fingers back on themselves if I consistently played wrong notes (which I did.) [...] Strangely enough - the only physical contact with teachers that bothered me was my singing teacher's insistence on holding my hand over her stomach to feel her breathing. For some reason that make me feel very uncomfortable.

My singing teacher does that, though she doesn't hold my hand, just lets me place it there. I don't have a problem with that, and the first time we did it, she checked it was OK with me.

[linda.ff]

An interesting view from another thread:

I am in my 30s and was never hit by a piano teacher. She did however bend my fingers back on themselves if I consistently played wrong notes (which I did.) [...] Strangely enough - the only physical contact with teachers that bothered me was my singing teacher's insistence on holding my hand over her stomach to feel her breathing. For some reason that make me feel very uncomfortable.

My singing teacher does that, though she doesn't hold my hand, just lets me place it there. I don't have a problem with that, and the first time we did it, she checked it was OK with me.

I used to ask them to rest their fist against my daphragm. For some reason using the fist doesn't feel like "touching" in the same way.

I have to say it never worried me, when I was 16-18, that my male singing teacher stood behind me and put his hands around my ribs and asked me to breathe, initially saying "no, it's still going up" and later, that I had the idea. Ifhis wife was at home, he got her to do it.

[tonedeafmum]

..

[Dulciana]

I wonder if asking permission really eradicates the problem? Would a young teenage singing pupil always have the confidence to say, "No, actually I'm not comfortable with that."? It is not the confident ones who will be taken advantage of. It might just be easier to do it even if it felt uncomfortable. Not that this example of touching is necessarily wrong, but the same thing would apply to something that just MIGHT have stemmed from the wrong motives on the part of the teacher. It's easy to see how it could happen. And how easy it would be for the situation to slowly worsen from one week to the next. And how on earth would the child broach the subject with a parent? The child would realise that permission had been given and would find it difficult to pinpoint the moment at which trust had been manipulated and advantage had been taken. I can't help feeling that there is a difference between touching hands and touching other parts of the body.

[Seer_Green]

I can't help feeling that there is a difference between touching hands and touching other parts of the body.

Possibly, though singing teachers/singers may see that in the same way that a piano teacher may touch a pupil's hands. It's not something I do personally as a singing teacher, but it was of enormous benefit to me as a pupil, and I'm glad my teacher wasn't afraid of doing it.

[Dulciana]

I can't help feeling that there is a difference between touching hands and touching other parts of the body.

Possibly, though singing teachers/singers may see that in the same way that a piano teacher may touch a pupil's hands. It's not something I do personally as a singing teacher, but it was of enormous benefit to me as a pupil, and I'm glad my teacher wasn't afraid of doing it.

Do you see what I mean, though, if I say that the teacher might be totally innocent, but that the child may simply feel uncomfortable, but not feel able to say so?

[briantrumpet]

Oooh - that's me! I never thought about that in relation to the 'touching children' post.

Apologies for quoting you from another thread, but it caught my eye as being extremely relevant here. I'm not disagreeing that the no-touching thing might have gone too far, but in a world where there are professionals who will take advantage of their access to children, I think we need to understand why the authorities are taking the no-touching stance as the default position.

I wonder if asking permission really eradicates the problem? Would a young teenage singing pupil always have the confidence to say, "No, actually I'm not comfortable with that."? It is not the confident ones who will be taken advantage of. It might just be easier to do it even if it felt uncomfortable. Not that this example of touching is necessarily wrong, but the same thing would apply to something that just MIGHT have stemmed from the wrong motives on the part of the teacher. It's easy to see how it could happen. And how easy it would be for the situation to slowly worsen from one week to the next. And how on earth would the child broach the subject with a parent? The child would realise that permission had been given and would find it difficult to pinpoint the moment at which trust had been manipulated and advantage had been taken. I can't help feeling that there is a difference between touching hands and touching other parts of the body.

Thank you, Dulciana. This perfectly sums up why it's such a difficult area, and why I think that a blanket denunciation of the no-touching advice might be unwise. There are sound reasons for it, and though people might feel it's an over-reaction to a rare but ever-present problem, it has the right intentions: both to safeguard children, and to lessen the likelihood of teachers being rightly or wrongly accused of inappropriate physical contact with children.

[Seer_Green]

I can't help feeling that there is a difference between touching hands and touching other parts of the body.

Possibly, though singing teachers/singers may see that in the same way that a piano teacher may touch a pupil's hands. It's not something I do personally as a singing teacher, but it was of enormous benefit to me as a pupil, and I'm glad my teacher wasn't afraid of doing it.

Do you see what I mean, though, if I say that the teacher might be totally innocent, but that the child may simply feel uncomfortable, but not feel able to say so?

Yes, but I can't honestly see a way round that unless you have a blanket no-touch policy, and in the end, even that wouldn't stop someone saying you'd touched them when in actual fact you hadn't laid a finger on them. I suppose one way round it might be to insist that another adult was present on the occasions where touch was necessary, but how far do you go?

[linda.ff]

I have to say that I don't even like the notion that you should ask a pupil if they mind. Asking if they mind puts the idea into their heads that it might be something some people don't like. Just doing it without asking gives them the impression that what you're doing is normal. I realise this could be carried to extremes, but really, touching hands and arms, even backs???

I do think the areas that are considered appropriate or otherwise have chganged somewhat over the last few decades. When I was still teaching singing, which was up to about 12 years ago, I never thought twice about sticking my thumbs and fingers into a pupil's ribcage to get them to push them out. I only did this with pupils whom I knew well, but there never seemed to be any surprise or embarrassment on their part. This included adults and children as young as 10.

I remember, between 30-40 years ago, a 2-page spread in some colour supplement showing diagrams of pairs of children (m and f), and I think also pairs of adults, with various areas shaded blue and pink to show what was appropriate or not between strangers, friends, parents, lovers etc. I do wish it could be reprinted and possibly appraised to see if it has changed. I believe the article in question was saying how persuasive the power of touch was, in that the slightest, briefest touch on the upper arm between strangers (in conversation, obviously, not just passing in the street) was enough to inspire confidence - how things have changed!!!

Since I suppose we do still teach children to shake hands with people as a greeting, why is it considered inappropriate to touch at other times? Or don't we teach them to shake hads any more?