Pedants' Paradise, Spelling and Grammar Notes and Queries Options

[Swell Box]

As this is a music forum ........

I am rather irritated by SB Junior's A Level music teacher, who insists on referring to 'decrescendos'. I was even more depressed to find the word in an on-line dictionary that I sometimes use. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

When SBJ questioned his teacher about this he was told that diminuendo is too difficult for students to remember, and that decrescendo means the same thing.

What was wrong with diminuendo? I distinctly recall being taught about crescendos and diminuendos at choir school when I was just nine or ten, so why is it too difficult for A Level students to remember now?

SB

There's nothing wrong with diminuendo but I can't see what's 'wrong' with decrescendo either if some people prefer it (except that it's da**!! ed hard to type)

But surely decrescendo is a corruption of the original Italian terminology? Would an Italian (who spoke no Americanised English) understand what a decrescendo is? And why not just use the correct term?

SB

[Dugazon]

But surely decrescendo is a corruption of the original Italian terminology? Would an Italian (who spoke no Americanised English) understand what a decrescendo is? And why not just use the correct term?

*smart a*** mode on*

Yes, they would, it's used frequently in music, and it is derived from the verb "decrescere", which ironically means "to decrease" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's certainly not an Americanism and never was, and it's also not an incorrect term as such. If you want to be really pedantic, decrescendo and diminuendo are not the same anyway, and it's actually quite logical if you think of "diminish" (diminuendo) versus "decrease" (decrescendo).

I find the general use of "crescendOS", "sopranOS" etc. much more irritating, since that's really something no Italian would say. The plural of a masculine noun (ending on -o) is either -i or -o:
"Io sono un soprano" => "Maria e Renata sono dei soprani/soprano" (both correct)
If used in the feminine (la soprano), they are always invariable (le soprano, not soprani) - either way, it's certainly not sopranOS - that's anglicised, not just americanised (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif).

*smart a*** mode off* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Aeolienne]

I find the general use of "crescendOS", "sopranOS" etc. much more irritating, since that's really something no Italian would say. The plural of a masculine noun (ending on -o) is either -i or -o:
"Io sono un soprano" => "Maria e Renata sono dei soprani/soprano" (both correct)
If used in the feminine (la soprano), they are always invariable (le soprano, not soprani) - either way, it's certainly not sopranOS - that's anglicised, not just americanised (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif).

*smart a*** mode off* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Surely not nearly as bad as the ubiquitous use of "panini" as if it were a singular noun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Changing the subject to another language, does anyone else on this forum insist on pronouncing a certain Swedish flatpack furniture chain as Ick-ey-ah not Eye-kee-ah?

[Czerny]

Yes, they would, it's used frequently in music, and it is derived from the verb "decrescere", which ironically means "to decrease" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In what way is this ironic? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) Or were you being ironic in your use of the word "ironic"?

[Dugazon]

Yes, they would, it's used frequently in music, and it is derived from the verb "decrescere", which ironically means "to decrease" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In what way is this ironic? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) Or were you being ironic in your use of the word "ironic"?

The (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) might give a hint.

P.S. I also pronounce Ikea with EE at the start and always get dirty looks for it.

[Czerny]

Yes, they would, it's used frequently in music, and it is derived from the verb "decrescere", which ironically means "to decrease" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In what way is this ironic? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) Or were you being ironic in your use of the word "ironic"?

The (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) might give a hint.

P.S. I also pronounce Ikea with EE at the start and always get dirty looks for it.

Far too subtle for me.

I think Ikea is probably pronounced in at least half a dozen different ways, depending on which branch you're visiting.

[maggiemay]

Changing the subject to another language, does anyone else on this forum insist on pronouncing a certain Swedish flatpack furniture chain as Ick-ey-ah not Eye-kee-ah?

I used to when they first arrived here. Until I learnt better, that is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Czerny]

Changing the subject to another language, does anyone else on this forum insist on pronouncing a certain Swedish flatpack furniture chain as Ick-ey-ah not Eye-kee-ah?

I used to when they first arrived here. Until I learnt better, that is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'm sure the way we say it here is typically English and not the way it's pronounced in Sweden or indeed any other country! It's certainly more like Ick-ey-ah in France.

[TeacherNumberOne]

But surely decrescendo is a corruption of the original Italian terminology? Would an Italian (who spoke no Americanised English) understand what a decrescendo is? And why not just use the correct term?

*smart a*** mode on*

Yes, they would, it's used frequently in music, and it is derived from the verb "decrescere", which ironically means "to decrease" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's certainly not an Americanism and never was, and it's also not an incorrect term as such. If you want to be really pedantic, decrescendo and diminuendo are not the same anyway, and it's actually quite logical if you think of "diminish" (diminuendo) versus "decrease" (decrescendo).

I find the general use of "crescendOS", "sopranOS" etc. much more irritating, since that's really something no Italian would say. The plural of a masculine noun (ending on -o) is either -i or -o:
"Io sono un soprano" => "Maria e Renata sono dei soprani/soprano" (both correct)
If used in the feminine (la soprano), they are always invariable (le soprano, not soprani) - either way, it's certainly not sopranOS - that's anglicised, not just americanised (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif).

*smart a*** mode off* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Do you have something in your eye? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[Swell Box]

Yes, they would, it's used frequently in music, and it is derived from the verb "decrescere", which ironically means "to decrease" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In what way is this ironic? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) Or were you being ironic in your use of the word "ironic"?

The (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) might give a hint.

P.S. I also pronounce Ikea with EE at the start and always get dirty looks for it.

Far too subtle for me.

I think Ikea is probably pronounced in at least half a dozen different ways, depending on which branch you're visiting.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Ah well. Our nearest branch is in Gateshead, (locally pronounced as 'Gieertshead'), where said company is called 'Aykeeyah mun', (as in "ahhm gannin te Aykeeyah mun"). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

SB

[freda_bloogs]

I have this discussion with people over and over again. If we pronounced loan words with their native properties every single time we came across one, we'd hardly have any "English" words! There's nothing wrong with saying eye-key-a. I have no Swedish phonology whatsoever so wouldn't even begin to know how to go about pronouncing it "properly."

[Dugazon]

I have this discussion with people over and over again. If we pronounced loan words with their native properties every single time we came across one, we'd hardly have any "English" words! There's nothing wrong with saying eye-key-a. I have no Swedish phonology whatsoever so wouldn't even begin to know how to go about pronouncing it "properly."

Certainly true, however I personally think there is a difference between loan words on the one hand, and names/proper nouns on the other. If you e.g. would like people to pronounce your surname the way you would in your native tongue, the same should apply to a name or proper noun?

[freda_bloogs]

I have this discussion with people over and over again. If we pronounced loan words with their native properties every single time we came across one, we'd hardly have any "English" words! There's nothing wrong with saying eye-key-a. I have no Swedish phonology whatsoever so wouldn't even begin to know how to go about pronouncing it "properly."

Certainly true, however I personally think there is a difference between loan words on the one hand, and names/proper nouns on the other. If you e.g. would like people to pronounce your surname the way you would in your native tongue, the same should apply to a name or proper noun?

It's a good way to think about it but it's subjective. It's always my first name that causes the problems, rather than my surname, and I don't really have a problem with people pronouncing it slightly differently and it's usually a decent approximation. A friend of mine is called Jean-R?my, but he'll introduce himself in England as John. Each to their own, I suppose.

[Arundodonuts]

I have this discussion with people over and over again. If we pronounced loan words with their native properties every single time we came across one, we'd hardly have any "English" words! There's nothing wrong with saying eye-key-a. I have no Swedish phonology whatsoever so wouldn't even begin to know how to go about pronouncing it "properly."

Certainly true, however I personally think there is a difference between loan words on the one hand, and names/proper nouns on the other. If you e.g. would like people to pronounce your surname the way you would in your native tongue, the same should apply to a name or proper noun?

It cuts both ways. In Germany I have heard a famous shop (now defunct) pronounced "Vullvort". Incidentally I had never thought about the pronunciation of IKEA and though I put the e on the end of Porsche, I pronounce Mercedes the English way. I did however, manage to pronounce my German mum's name, Lisa, correctly - unlike most English people.

[Swell Box]

I have this discussion with people over and over again. If we pronounced loan words with their native properties every single time we came across one, we'd hardly have any "English" words! There's nothing wrong with saying eye-key-a. I have no Swedish phonology whatsoever so wouldn't even begin to know how to go about pronouncing it "properly."

Certainly true, however I personally think there is a difference between loan words on the one hand, and names/proper nouns on the other. If you e.g. would like people to pronounce your surname the way you would in your native tongue, the same should apply to a name or proper noun?

There is a very strong Norse influence here in the north east, so the Geordie pronounciation of Ikea may be closer to the original than we think. When I visited Norway I was suprised how many Geordie words and sayings were immediately recognised by the locals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

SB