Can't discriminate notes, but can sing them. Options

[BadStrad]

Hi, I'm not a singer, but I thought you guys and gals might have the best insight into my little problem. I'm a string player and have been working on improvisation with my teacher. To try and make it easier for me he suggested stepwise motion - eg C-D-E, but that seemed to make it much harder than, say C-E-G. I said that I find telling two close notes harder to distinguish - I can't tell where the melody is going. So he played pairs of notes and I had to say higher or lower depending on how the second note related to the first. I couldn't do it for close pairs. If he added a third note I could and for the bigger gaps I could. If he gave me three notes I could sing the next in the sequence and up or down the scale, but that seemed easier as the scale pattern of intervals is so familiar.

Now here's the bit that really warped his mind. I could sing back both notes, in tune, and STILL not know which was higher, although after about five minutes of singing pairs and up and down scales I could distinguish what note was higher, I guess it was like I'd warmed up my ears!?

So has anyone had a pupil who could sing the notes and not tell them apart? If so what did you do? I suspect it's a matter of practice, but as I say my teacher was so weirded out by the "singing but not knowing" thing that I had to ask if anyone else had experienced it.

Sorry for long post.

[Alicia Ocean]

I don't know the answer but I can do something similar. I don't think I have perfect pitch as I can't identify notes - but on hearing a note I can go to it immediately on the piano and then tell you what it is. If I haven't a keyboard handy I can imagine one and then name the note - but I'd need to do this first before I could say which was the higher of two notes. I guess it's something to do with the way my brain stores the information?

[jod]

Have you tried learning solfa?

This sounds like a case where learning the relationship of notes in a tonal structure would help.

Cyrilla is the resident Solfa expert.

[BadStrad]

Have you tried learning solfa?

Jod - Weirdly - when I'm playing scales I tend to go doh re me etc rather than the note names, but haven't formally ever learned solfa.

I wouldn't really know where to start, and don't have the money for singing lessons now (the joy of the current economy). If anyone could give me any pointers I'd be grateful. I thought maybe just playing notes on OH's piano and singing them back could help. And of course if anyone else DOES have experience of sorting out this kind of issue, please let me know.

Alicia - yes - sounds like a variation on the same theme.

[sbhoa]

This is not from a specifically singing angle....

Starting with notes further apart seems like a good move to me.
When you sing two notes which are a 3rd or more apart can you feel the difference between singing a higher and a lower note?

[Cyrilla]

Have you tried learning solfa?

This sounds like a case where learning the relationship of notes in a tonal structure would help.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Although I'm afraid there's no 'quick fix' here... Solfa is brilliant for explaining pitch relationships and increasing aural awareness - but it doesn't happen overnight and you really will need a teacher in order to really benefit.

And in answer to your original question - yes, I have taught several people who have the problem you describe - so you are not alone!

Best of luck.

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[jod]

Have you tried learning solfa?

This sounds like a case where learning the relationship of notes in a tonal structure would help.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Although I'm afraid there's no 'quick fix' here... Solfa is brilliant for explaining pitch relationships and increasing aural awareness - but it doesn't happen overnight and you really will need a teacher in order to really benefit.

And in answer to your original question - yes, I have taught several people who have the problem you describe - so you are not alone!

Best of luck.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I thought Cyrilla would agree, I have a had similar experiences with solfa and pitch perception as a teacher. You do need the input of a teacher to cement that you are getting right and gentle put you on the right path.

[Guitarist]

David Lucas berge's perfect pitch and relative pitch course is about the best ear training I've come across!

[jod]

David Lucas berge's perfect pitch and relative pitch course is about the best ear training I've come across!

I haven't come across that course, Guitarist. I know that relative pitch is very different from Perfect Pitch as I have a close relative who has Perfect Pitch and as an experienced singer I have developed good relative pitch.

This was not done by any 'quick fix courses' and I am more interested in the pedagogy and methodoly behind such things, especially as in my first year at Huddersfield we were all involved in the RAMP project and had to go around notating the pitch of Cash points, keys of tills and other such things. The learning of Solfa and its relationship to tonal theory works.

Establishing where a persons singing and speaking range lies and, in particular their passagi are are imperative as by doing that one can establish reference points for a pitch structure.

In solfa every diatonic interval can be expressed as a relationship and the system goes back over 800 years.

Trained singers regularly can remember the starting note of pieces they are singing away from any reference point as it feels right on their voice due to placing. Hence 'singers pitch' Get near a passagio and they need their ear to ensure that doh-soh remains in tune (it regularly goes sharp).

[BadStrad]

When you sing two notes which are a 3rd or more apart can you feel the difference between singing a higher and a lower note?

Yes. The larger the gap the easier it gets.

I think from reading the replies that it must just be a lack of practice/attention on my part. I can hear the intervals when I play a scale, so starting on any note I can work out what fingering I need for say a major scale, but when the two notes are in isolation I get lost. Weird! But anyway - it's good to know that I'm not alone in this, so thanks for the reassurances. I guess I just have to get teacher to build some of this into the lessons and to practice between times.