It would be funny, .. if it wasn't true Options

[FullofWind]

Hmm. What's wrong with a piece of fiction having conflict and resolution? It ensures that the story has a shape - it takes quite a long time for a child to realise how "the middle" of a story should develop, so clues are useful. I wouldn't call that child-led learning! I am very happy that my children are taught how to analyse and critically assess. (I suspect some are too dim to realise what they're learning, though)

I've never met a dim child. I've met plenty dim (academic) teachers though..

I've met more than a few dim children. Doesn't mean they're worthless, but some are truly dim...

I'd also question the assertion that children don't learn anything at school - mine have learnt loads, from enthusiastic, clever and ecnouraging teachers. It's very easy to generalise and I've not met 'plenty' of dim teachers, in fact probably not any. Unpleasant perhaps, or not particularly good teachers, or some lacking in empathy, but none actually 'dim'.

I shall assume you mean all this rather tongue-in-cheek!

No it's not tongue and cheek. I've never met a dim child. Children are vibrant and interesting and to quantify a child on whether they can perform equations or write a great story is dreadful. If anything, an adult seems more dim for thinking this way about children!

[Cyrilla]

I've never met a dim child. Children are vibrant and interesting..

Tongue AND cheek (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) ?

I think there are degrees of the various types of intelligence present in both children and adults.

I once had a seven-year-old girl in my class whose IQ was measured as 76. Nowadays I am sure she would be in a special unit or special school. She, bless her, was certainly not 'vibrant and interesting'. Perhaps you need to make it clear quite what you mean by 'dim'..

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[FullofWind]

I've never met a dim child. Children are vibrant and interesting..

Tongue AND cheek (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) ?

I think there are degrees of the various types of intelligence present in both children and adults.

I once had a seven-year-old girl in my class whose IQ was measured as 76. Nowadays I am sure she would be in a special unit or special school. She, bless her, was certainly not 'vibrant and interesting'. Perhaps you need to make it clear quite what you mean by 'dim'..

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well I think children in special units or special schools are vibrant and interesting. I'm pretty shocked, no - saddened - by some of these comments.

[Cyrilla]

Well I think children in special units or special schools are vibrant and interesting. I'm pretty shocked, no - saddened - by some of these comments.

Which of my comments have saddened you, FoW?

With respect, you did not meet the girl I mentioned - and you would not have termed her 'vibrant and interesting', believe me.

How much experience do you have in special schools and special units?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[FullofWind]

Well I think children in special units or special schools are vibrant and interesting. I'm pretty shocked, no - saddened - by some of these comments.

Which of my comments have saddened you, FoW?

With respect, you did not meet the girl I mentioned - and you would not have termed her 'vibrant and interesting', believe me.

How much experience do you have in special schools and special units?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So there was not one thing about her that was interesting or vibrant. Was she a vegetable then? I find everyone vibrant and interesting. They may not be on the same academic level as me, they may be on a higher or lower one depending on the topic. Having a lack of intellectual ability does not make one dim, nor does it mean they lack in vibrancy or are not interesting. Maybe those who cannot see that are the dim ones? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[Cyrilla]

I've never met a dim child. I've met plenty dim (academic) teachers though..

I find everyone vibrant and interesting.

I am confused by several aspects of your comments. The two quoted above contradict each other. Also you have not answered my question regarding which of my comments you found shocking and saddening.

I am also puzzled as to quite what your definition of 'dim' is.

I am rather upset by your assumption that I would describe a child with an IQ of 76, or even lower, as 'a vegetable.' This girl could never be described as 'vibrant' - she just couldn't be. Of course there were hugely rewarding aspects in teaching her. Perhaps the only thing in which she could achieve on an equal footing with some of her peers was music. She could sing in tune and I'll never forget the tears streaming down her mother's face when she sight-sang a little piece of music in a demonstration lesson (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

I did once teach a boy who ate pencils. I'm not sure if that was vibrant but it was certainly 'interesting' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) .

If I didn't know you better, FoW, I would suspect that you are posting intentionally provocative comments in this and other threads recently, so this is my last post in this thread.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[FullofWind]

I did not even bring up the word "dim", it was someone else. My point is that everyone is interesting, vibrant, a pain in the %^*, horrible, lively, boring etc Some have these qualities, or flaws, in greater or lesser quantities than others but I don't think anyone is completely devoid of them. I did mean a vegetable as in a carrot, not a vegetable in the sense of retardation so I apologise for my lousy use of words. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

I can guarantee you that I'm not being provocative on any thread. These are my opinions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[tonedeafmum]

I did once teach a boy who ate pencils. I'm not sure if that was vibrant but it was certainly 'interesting' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Sorry, Cyrilla, but this reminds me of one of my favourite moments in the tv show "Malcom in the Middle" - the episode in which "gifted" Dewey is put into the "special needs" class after cheating on a test.

This is the teacher's answer when Dewey asks why the special class have no art supplies and have to make do with class after class of paper folding.

"Art supplies mean scissors, they mean paste. These children stab with scissors, they eat paste. Some of them tried to eat scissors. This one tried to stab with paste."

"Stabbing with paste" has since become a tonedeaf family euphemism for less than intelligent behaviour. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dulcet]

I did once teach a boy who ate pencils. I'm not sure if that was vibrant but it was certainly 'interesting' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Sorry, Cyrilla, but this reminds me of one of my favourite moments in the tv show "Malcom in the Middle" - the episode in which "gifted" Dewey is put into the "special needs" class after cheating on a test.

This is the teacher's answer when Dewey asks why the special class have no art supplies and have to make do with class after class of paper folding.

"Art supplies mean scissors, they mean paste. These children stab with scissors, they eat paste. Some of them tried to eat scissors. This one tried to stab with paste."

"Stabbing with paste" has since become a tonedeaf family euphemism for less than intelligent behaviour. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Someone can be interesting but dim. Some people are boring.

[vectistim]

Some people are boring.

Presumably they have their own drills.

[jessy]

I've never met a dim child. I've met plenty dim (academic) teachers though..

I find everyone vibrant and interesting.

I am confused by several aspects of your comments. The two quoted above contradict each other. Also you have not answered my question regarding which of my comments you found shocking and saddening.

I am also puzzled as to quite what your definition of 'dim' is.

I am rather upset by your assumption that I would describe a child with an IQ of 76, or even lower, as 'a vegetable.' This girl could never be described as 'vibrant' - she just couldn't be. Of course there were hugely rewarding aspects in teaching her. Perhaps the only thing in which she could achieve on an equal footing with some of her peers was music. She could sing in tune and I'll never forget the tears streaming down her mother's face when she sight-sang a little piece of music in a demonstration lesson (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

I did once teach a boy who ate pencils. I'm not sure if that was vibrant but it was certainly 'interesting' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) .

If I didn't know you better, FoW, I would suspect that you are posting intentionally provocative comments in this and other threads recently, so this is my last post in this thread.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I second your comments, Cyrilla. I am currently in secondary classroom teaching, have done primary and also teach all-age as a peri and mention this only to point out I have seen a few children other than my own.

I think we reckon 'dim' to indicate 'not very bright' and i think it is disingenuous to use such a pejorative term and then criticise others who disagree with a generalised statement.

As far as I can see, no one here is saying that any people, whether children or adults, are of less instrinsic worth than others. However, the truth is that some people are less clever than others. In terms of musically ability, the cleverer people will tend to be better players, because of the demands of the subject.

Equally, we should be able to expect teachers to be academically able, because academic qualifications demand exactly that. I

How can everyone be vibrant and interesting? Surely we aren't all vibrant and intersting to everyone? These are, of course, subjective terms. After all, not everyone love chocolate and lathough I may not be able to understand how anyone can possibly dislike it, I have to accept their (misguided!) taste!

Having just re-read ToW's reply to my last post, I see she thinks I am dim because I don't think all children are 'bright' (being the opposite of 'dim'). I value all my pupils, whatever their abilities and try to teache them as best suits their needs, as any good teacher would.

Goodness - what a shame to have people being insulting on the forum. It rather puts me off posting anything here at all. I shall desist from making any comment on the posts of certain folk, I think, who may appear to have a hidden agenda.

Noting that criticism from FoW has just spoilt my day, especially after having finished yesterday in school with some child threatening me because I wouldn't let him intimidate others in the class. I'd logged on here today to be with some pleasant people.