Bottom of a talented bunch at music college., Can you rise to the top? Options

[MNW]

I was wondering, if when a student enters music college do they always remain in the same position (all things being equal) compared to their peers? What I mean is: there are lots of musicians entering music college having just passed grade 8 and then there are some who have FRSM and others with considerable performing experience. Do the latter always stay ahead of the former and how would this manifest itself? Does it mean they are better players or get more performance opportunities? I am intrigued because with standard university courses most students are on a level playing field with 3A's at A'level, for example, but music college is different. And if the more advanced student always stays ahead, is this not frustrating for the student of lesser ability and do they feel disadvantaged?

I am not trying to start a heated debate but I am intrigued because if I entered a course knowing I was considerably weaker than most of my class then I'm not sure I would be strong enough to put myself in such an environment. Of course I could be the weakest on a standard academic course but I wouldn't necessarily know this until a couple of years in. I assume with music, especially performance, it becomes quite obvious fairly quickly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[serendipity]

I'm not sure about your assumption about standard university courses - 3 As or even 3A*s can cover a multitude of sins, and I wouldn't assume that all those students were the same ability or had the same capacity for independent work. And I would think the differences are evident fairly early on.

But back to the question, can I get back to you in a few years? My eldest has just started at a leading conservatoire, and knows full well she is not the best in her instrument. In some ways, she might even be amongst the worst, but then she has been playing for only 6 years, most of that with lessons in a standard comprehensive, whereas many of her new fellow students have been playing anywhere up to 12 years and have spent years in specialist music schools. In the last couple of years she has found the differences frustrating sometimes, but she now has the same teaching and the same practice opportunities as the others and intends to give it her all.

I remember a few years ago she met a lovely girl the same age as her who had achieved grade 8 distinction at the age of 11 in the same instrument that my daughter plays - bear in mind my daughter wasn't even playing any instrument at that age, let alone have a grade 8. My daughter was really down-hearted because she felt so far behind all these talented young musicians and that she could never catch up. About 18 months later, after a week-long music course with this girl, she came home and said 'you know, I think I'm as good as S. now', this was a real confidence boost and I think for the first time she really thought she had a chance of getting into music college.

I don't think the situation is as stark as you describe - I would think everyone is well above grade 8 standard on entry, but you are right, some have many more qualifications and much, much more learning and performing experience. From the little we know so far, most conservatoires seem to try to give all students performing opportunities, although some opportunities and orchestral places are dependent on auditions. There is one particular conservatoire that severa; students and past students there have told us tends to give most of the opportunities to the very best, but I really can't say if that's true.

As far as our personal experience goes, after a grand total of 4 weeks there, my daughter has been set for various things and has 'discovered' that she is in the top set for theory but that her aural skills are not as advanced as many of the others. Again, no great surprise given the patchy nature of a lot of her musical education - her A level music teachers, best not talk about them... She has also discovered that while she might lag behind a bit (or a lot) in her main study, she is thought to be pretty hot on her related instrument, so has already gained a few opportunities (and another confidence boost) there.

I guess this is where the old argument about potential comes in - will the different people in your scenario progress at the same rates, or will the gap between them narrow or widen? Like I say, I'll get back to you in about 4 years!

[MNW]

That's sounding very positive for you daughter and I hope she has a fantastic time and further grows in confidence. If they do catch up though I do wonder what the point of a specialist music school is. That question is quite pertinent to me! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[sbhoa]

That's sounding very positive for you daughter and I hope she has a fantastic time and further grows in confidence. If they do catch up though I do wonder what the point of a specialist music school is. That question is quite pertinent to me! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I think that the point of a specialist music school is to provide an appropriate learning environment for those children who need more timetabling for music than is possible elsewhere. Not all children will go on to study music at university level and some who start younger may not even continue to 6th form but at the time when they first go hopefully it's just the most appropriate place for them at that time in their lives.

[sam_1]

read "Outliers" (Gladwell, I think) - it discusses this concept in a very interesting and compelling manner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[flobiano]

I was wondering, if when a student enters music college do they always remain in the same position (all things being equal) compared to their peers?

I would hope that no college or university (or indeed parent) would be encouraging the view that the only thing that matters in education is "beating" your peers but rather they would be encouraging their students to maximise their own potential, being the best that they can be and valuing education for its own sake - or am I being too idealistic.

Also - in order to stay in the same position all students would have to work equally hard, putting in the same number of hours of the same quality practice and taking equal advantage of all the opportunities that are there. I don't imagine for a minute that this is the case.

[Misti]

I don't think many cohorts of university students start on an equal footing. Speaking from my own, non-music experience here, but:

Firstly, maturity (both in terms of studying, and living independently) has a huge impact. If you can't cook, and can't get yourself out of bed for lectures, you'll fall behind. I went to college rather than a school for 6th form, which means I was used to attendance in lectures being sort-of-optional, i.e. no-one pestered if you missed a few / many. Similarly, optional homeworks, and self-driven study was the norm. This is much better preparation for uni than doing your A Levels "at school".

Secondly, different subjects, make a huge difference to achievement. I started an engineering course without having done physics or further maths... most people on the course had. First year maths courses (in fact, all first year courses, and most second year ones) were particularly tough for me because of this. I nearly failed first year maths. That said, by final year, I was regularly scoring 70-95 in maths courses (70 is very good, 95 is practically impossible without a pushover lecturer). The random humanties subjects I had taken at college stood me in good stead as we went onto more advanced stuff in 3rd and 4th year. The fact I could write a half decent argument (unlike most engineering students) went a very long way.

I went in with a scholarship in my first year of uni, based on my college grades, I lost it to more highly achieving students in second year. By third year I was within the top part of the year, but not outstanding (and irritatingly, the scholarship system had changed!). In final year I was back to being very near the top of the heap. That said, my average grade for each year was exactly the same. Looking back, I was boringly consistent!

Thirdly, whether or not students work makes a massive difference to their outcome. My sister worked 20 hours a week while getting through her degree. Perhaps if she hadn't, she would have got a first class honours, as it was, she landed up with a 2:1.

In the grand scheme of things, I think where you start has very little effect on where you end up. Its time, effort, and what you make of the opportunities along the way which make the difference.

[RoseRodent]

I would hope that no college or university (or indeed parent) would be encouraging the view that the only thing that matters in education is "beating" your peers but rather they would be encouraging their students to maximise their own potential, being the best that they can be and valuing education for its own sake - or am I being too idealistic.

In most other situations I'd say that's the point of education, absolutely we are supporting people to do the best, etc. But in a music college situation I'm afraid the best work, the others don't. It's not an all-encompassing environment the same as other situations, if you are extremely good at astrophysics you may become Stephen Hawking, if you are someone who scrapes passes maybe you will do the night shift in the observatory. Performance musicians, especially aspiring soloists, must be the best or they are nobody at all. I guess a lot depends on where you want your career to take you, but most who enter conservatoires are all after the same scarce opportunites rather than the wider musical career of the university BMus student. A career where opportunities depend upon head to head competition in auditions, recording contracts, record sales, I'm afraid you do need to "beat" the others or your performance will not sell.

Over to the point of music schools, I suppose they are an opportunity for musicians to develop alongside other musicians. We do try to group children broadly together in a way that they don't feel hopelessly outclassed nor bored to tears. In maths there is a reasonable chance that everyone in year 10 falls somewhere on the year 9-11 curriculum, where musicians tend to find that they are taking their grade 8 while their peers learn "this is a crotchet" and can you ding this single chime bar in time with the recording. I needed a school where the orchestra gave me a chance to join other grade 7-8+ performers just to have a peer group. It wasn't a specialist music school, just a school with a very strong musical reputation, about 40% of the kids had a grade 8 by year 11, almost 80% had a grade 5 in at least one instrument, which is obviously low for a music school but way off the charts for your average school. I wouldn't have fitted in at a school where other kids were just about able to bang out London's Burning on the recorder and thought you were talented if you could carry a tune of any kind. It would have been as inappropriate as putting a child who was preparing for GCSEs back into a Reception class. It's not necessarily about making those children stand out, develop faster, it's just about giving them opportunities to do what they need to do in their own educational progress. Many schools in my city didn't even offer GCSE music!

[Listener]

I would hope that no college or university (or indeed parent) would be encouraging the view that the only thing that matters in education is "beating" your peers but rather they would be encouraging their students to maximise their own potential, being the best that they can be and valuing education for its own sake - or am I being too idealistic.

<...> A career where opportunities depend upon head to head competition in auditions, recording contracts, record sales, I'm afraid you do need to "beat" the others or your performance will not sell.

I agree, RoseRodent.

Also, Flobiano, MNW wasn't asking about a student beating his/her peers, but about rising from being at the bottom. That is quite a different question. The nightmare of your child going into a selective/competitive environment and being bottom of the pile and staying there must surface in the dark hours of the night for any thinking parent who is brave/daft enough to put their child in that position. (If people don't approve of this kind of education they're not likely to have much sympathy, which is fine!)

EDIT: Oops sorry, just realised this is students' forum. Far too old for that, I'll pop off now (not my clogs I hope)

[MNW]

I would hope that no college or university (or indeed parent) would be encouraging the view that the only thing that matters in education is "beating" your peers but rather they would be encouraging their students to maximise their own potential, being the best that they can be and valuing education for its own sake - or am I being too idealistic.

<...> A career where opportunities depend upon head to head competition in auditions, recording contracts, record sales, I'm afraid you do need to "beat" the others or your performance will not sell.

I agree, RoseRodent.

Also, Flobiano, MNW wasn't asking about a student beating his/her peers, but about rising from being at the bottom. That is quite a different question. The nightmare of your child going into a selective/competitive environment and being bottom of the pile and staying there must surface in the dark hours of the night for any thinking parent who is brave/daft enough to put their child in that position. (If people don't approve of this kind of education they're not likely to have much sympathy, which is fine!)

Thanks for clarifying Listener as this was exactly my point. Happy for anyone's input!

EDIT: Oops sorry, just realised this is students' forum. Far too old for that, I'll pop off now (not my clogs I hope)

[notmusimum]

Also, Flobiano, MNW wasn't asking about a student beating his/her peers, but about rising from being at the bottom. That is quite a different question. The nightmare of your child going into a selective/competitive environment and being bottom of the pile and staying there must surface in the dark hours of the night for any thinking parent who is brave/daft enough to put their child in that position. (If people don't approve of this kind of education they're not likely to have much sympathy, which is fine!)

EDIT: Oops sorry, just realised this is students' forum. Far too old for that, I'll pop off now (not my clogs I hope)

I'm not sure that parents fully understand what they are getting into when they are daft enough to let their offspring venture into a specialist environment. The reasons for making that choice will be vastly different.

I know nothing about senior consevatoire, not yet being at that stage. What I can say is that at a lower level politics is huge part of the whole senario. I personally hate this as it's destructive to everyone. This may not be the case at seniors.

I think auditioning for concerts etc is a good thing but I don't like the way people attempt to use others to be better than them, even on an entirely different instrument (real life experience).

Whatever level you make the specialist music decision it really has to be what the child wants as they are the ones who will need to put in the work, face the disappointments and keep success in perspective.

[MNW]

That's rather arrogant to assume a large number of parents are "daft" to opt for specialism for their children. I would like to think that I wouldnt judge anyone for the choices they make even if it seems bizarre or conflicts with my ideals. Dig deep and one tends to find that it is the child that is pushing for specialism and the parent has tried to dissuade them or ignore their child's passions or talents for a long time. As long as the child is informed and continually made aware of the pro's and cons and is allowed to opt out at any point then I do not see the harm. Luckily the music schools in the UK offer a traditional academic education minus subjects such as media studies or psychology which seem to get one nowhere with uni applications. Sport is an issue but some children hate sport and some parents have to work around these issues.

Anyway this is way off topic and not relevant to the original post!

[allegro2011]

Going back to the original question and speaking from having been through it myself and having a child just finish at conservatoire - it really depends on the motivation of the individual. Some of the most talented musicians at the start of music college drop out or end up doing something completely different, and some of the 'average' musicians of my peer group at specialist school and college have ended up in great and well-respected musical positions. I think the same can be said of my son and his peer group - certainly on his course he entered as the one with the most previous performing experience and has had the motivation to keep pushing himself and is coping well in his first year out. He ended up with a lot of awards and prizes, but it is a constant round of practice, rehearsals and contacting people for work. A few of his peers couldn't take it and have dropped out, but one very insecure lad at the start of the course is now working regularly through sheer determination and effort. Above all, I would say that his peer group have been very supportive of each other (including those from other colleges) and we haven't come across any back-biting etc. They are a lovely bunch!

[MNW]

Going back to the original question and speaking from having been through it myself and having a child just finish at conservatoire - it really depends on the motivation of the individual. Some of the most talented musicians at the start of music college drop out or end up doing something completely different, and some of the 'average' musicians of my peer group at specialist school and college have ended up in great and well-respected musical positions. I think the same can be said of my son and his peer group - certainly on his course he entered as the one with the most previous performing experience and has had the motivation to keep pushing himself and is coping well in his first year out. He ended up with a lot of awards and prizes, but it is a constant round of practice, rehearsals and contacting people for work. A few of his peers couldn't take it and have dropped out, but one very insecure lad at the start of the course is now working regularly through sheer determination and effort. Above all, I would say that his peer group have been very supportive of each other (including those from other colleges) and we haven't come across any back-biting etc. They are a lovely bunch!

My experience of professional musicians, in whatever field they are in, is that they are very nice and generous with their praise of other musicians. There does not seem to be any jealousy, just an appreciation for how good their colleagues are. I think it's jealous, competitive parents that tend to come out with nasty comments.

[notmusimum]

That's rather arrogant to assume a large number of parents are "daft" to opt for specialism for their children. I would like to think that I wouldnt judge anyone for the choices they make even if it seems bizarre or conflicts with my ideals. Dig deep and one tends to find that it is the child that is pushing for specialism and the parent has tried to dissuade them or ignore their child's passions or talents for a long time. As long as the child is informed and continually made aware of the pro's and cons and is allowed to opt out at any point then I do not see the harm. Luckily the music schools in the UK offer a traditional academic education minus subjects such as media studies or psychology which seem to get one nowhere with uni applications. Sport is an issue but some children hate sport and some parents have to work around these issues.

Anyway this is way off topic and not relevant to the original post!

It was a joke on my part the quote says brave/daft enough. I don't think it was meant as an insult or judgemental at least I didn't see it that way.