Sight Singing, Which method to use... Options

[AnotherPianist]

Apologies for yet another thread on sight-singing; although hopefully this one should have a slightly less dramatic feel to it than usual :lol:.

It seems that there are so many possible ways to do sight-singing and I was just wondering what the 'standard' or 'best' way to do it; or indeed if there is one.

Here are the ways I can think of...

1) Sing up (and down) a scale (the key that the piece is in) in one's head only singing out loud the notes that are on the page (and of course changing direction when the music does) so effectively one continuous scale, changing directions throughout the piece (of course one could use a chromatic scale if there are lots of accidentals/one finds it easier);

2) Sing every note as an interval from the tonic: hear the tonic in one's head after each note and then sing the next note the appropriate interval above it;

3) Sing each note the appropriate interval higher or lower than the previous one: e.g. sing a note then one a minor third higher; one a perfect fourth lower than that etc.

4) Learning sol-fa; is this different or does it reduce to number 2: if one knows what do is one can sing fa? Or perhaps it reduces to one of the others or is something different entirely...

Which methods to people use or teach people to use? Feel free to add any that I've missed.

I tend to find that method 1 leaves gaps in rhythm (e.g. if there's a passage that goes C D E G then there's a rest equivalent to the other notes' lengths between E and G where the F is sung in one's head) is there any obvious way to get rid of this other than singing the scale twice as fast and waiting for each note?!

[DavidMusic]

QUOTE (AnotherPianist @ Jun 15 2004, 01:42 PM)

Apologies for yet another thread on sight-singing; although hopefully this one should have a slightly less dramatic feel to it than usual :lol:. It seems that there are so many possible ways to do sight-singing and I was just wondering what the 'standard' or 'best' way to do it; or indeed if there is one. Here are the ways I can think of... 1) Sing up (and down) a scale (the key that the piece is in) in one's head only singing out loud the notes that are on the page (and of course changing direction when the music does) so effectively one continuous scale, changing directions throughout the piece (of course one could use a chromatic scale if there are lots of accidentals/one finds it easier); 2) Sing every note as an interval from the tonic: hear the tonic in one's head after each note and then sing the next note the appropriate interval above it; 3) Sing each note the appropriate interval higher or lower than the previous one: e.g. sing a note then one a minor third higher; one a perfect fourth lower than that etc. 4) Learning sol-fa; is this different or does it reduce to number 2: if one knows what do is one can sing fa? Or perhaps it reduces to one of the others or is something different entirely... Which methods to people use or teach people to use? Feel free to add any that I've missed. I tend to find that method 1 leaves gaps in rhythm (e.g. if there's a passage that goes C D E G then there's a rest equivalent to the other notes' lengths between E and G where the F is sung in one's head) is there any obvious way to get rid of this other than singing the scale twice as fast and waiting for each note?!

I'd advise sol-fa.

[Cyrilla]

As one who has learned to sight-sing through solfa, all the other ways you describe sound tortuous, mechanical and even downright impossible!

Solfa really IS the best way. You learn aurally the sounds of the relative intervals so there is no 'delay' and you can sight-sing as fluently as reading words.

It's very difficult to describe in words! It takes time to learn but is just wonderful. I still like to sight-sing something new (choral piece)in solfa first, before singing it with words, as solfa makes you feel so safe! It also describes tonal function and makes modulations very clear and easy to sight-sing.

Go, go, GO SOLFA!!!!

[Cyrilla]

PS Sorry, I can't make head or tail of 'if one know what do is one can sing fa?' !!! So I can't answer it unless you explain what you mean....

[AnotherPianist]

Is sol-fa the method that everyone uses; and the only one that would ever succeed?

QUOTE

I can't make head or tail of 'if one know what do is one can sing fa?'

I meant is using sol-fa the same as singing any interval from the tonic, i.e. you're told C so you can sing any note in C major because you know where it is relative the tonic; or does one just get a 'feeling' of the key so to speak so it's easy to sing anything? I don't know if that makes any more sense....

QUOTE

You learn aurally the sounds of the relative intervals

By relative intervals what do you mean relative to: relative to the tonic or to the previous note (i.e. the interval between every note and every other)?
I seem to be able to do it quite instinctivley in C major; maybe I'm internally doing sol-fa with the letters of the alphabet instead of the traditional names, of course that would get confusing if reading in a different key because one would have to read one letter and sing another!

Does using sol-fa mean that one would have to read music differently: e.g. one would read the note as the fourth note of the scale rather than an F or whatever? How would one go about learning sol-fa, starting from the point that one can sing and recognise intervals (assuming that one doesn't have a teacher for it)? I appreciate that it's quite a large topic to teach and that you can't do it in a post; but any advice would be appreciated :) or is it just a case of giving it a try and seeing what happens?

[Alvin]

First of all, I am not taking singing course or joining a choir. However I get quite good result in my singing exam in the school :D 18/20. Although the teacher may give the mark a little bit too high.
I never use sol-fa name to sing. I know the intervals very well. If you give me the first note, I can sing any notes. (I may get the notes not so accurate if the interval is very large- exceed an octave. It is because I am not learning singing now although I was in choir four years ago.) No matter what key it is or how the song modulates. It may be because I have a perfect pitch.
I tried to accompany some singers for competition. I heard them singing sol-fa name and when there is a modulation, they often sing the notes not accurate enough. I think it is the cons of singing sol-fa name.

[Violinia]

Er, am I weird? I've never really learnt solfah but have always been able to sightsing without any trouble. I just look at the music and hear how it's supposed to go - like reading, only it's music. There MUST be loads of other musicians who can do this - I don't believe there aren't.

But I do see there's a problem when it comes to teaching it, because I don't really know how I learnt it in the first place. This is why I'm seriously considering doing the Kodaly course, because it sounds like such a good way of easily enabling ones' pupils to have this skill.

Is it really difficult for so many people here to sightsing without having to work it all out logically? I'm a bit confused as to why. Also, it seems a bit strange that so many teachers of music can't do it, because if they can't do it, how can they even begin teach it?

Violinia

[AnotherPianist]

Violinia - how do you currently teach it?

As for doing it instinctively with some things I can and some I can't, there's no particular pattern to what's easy or not (I'm quite new to it though so lots of practice will be a good starting point...) some of the time it's instinctive but other times I have to work it out using logical methods (usually just going up the scale if I get stuck) so I can do it but not in a 'nice' way. I wouldn't have thought it was normal to be able to do it instinctivley correctly all the time without needing to learn, you must just be good at it :)!

QUOTE

Also, it seems a bit strange that so many teachers of music can't do it, because if they can't do it, how can they even begin teach it?

Since so many people have said that they don't know about sol-fa I thought that they must have some other methods of doing it (hence teaching it); I was quite suprised that no one has responded saying that they use a different method; they must do it somehow - tell us how! Sol-fa is certainly winning on recommendations so far.

[sbhoa]

Although I wouldn't call myself very proficient I sight sing the way that you do Violinia.

QUOTE

But I do see there's a problem when it comes to teaching it, because I don't really know how I learnt it in the first place

And yes, this is a bit of a problem, not only with sight singing, but with many other aspects of teaching too.
Sometimes it is a matter of 'Let me try tihs so I can see how I do it' <_<

[maggiemay]

QUOTE

Er, am I weird? I've never really learnt solfah but have always been able to sightsing without any trouble. I just look at the music and hear how it's supposed to go - like reading, only it's music. There MUST be loads of other musicians who can do this - I don't believe there aren't.

oh yes - I was reading down the posts and trying to work out how to ask this very question - when I found you had said it for me. Thank you Violinia !
Likewise it's not easy to teach, because I too don't know how I learnt it in the first place. I guess I just kind of absorbed it. But that's no help to anyone else!
However, I have successfully taught people of varying ages to sight-sing, without specifically using solfa, although being able to work out the position of doh on the stave is necessary at some point, so I suppose that has elements of solfa about it.

Maggie

[Amy]

I don't really think sight singing should need to be taught.

It is a skill or ability or whatever that pupils should practice so that they improve, but if a pupil plays scales, and really knows their scale patterns, sight singing should be straightforward enough, shouldn't itt?

But I do think practice will help.

By the way, when you're sight reading a new piece, do you think you sight sing the notes in your head as you play? This must happen to some extent.

[Violinia]

I teach it by teaching intervals and getting the pupils to recognise them and then sing them by ear. It does work - eventually. But because they're learning it later in life than I did (from my mother when very young), it's not so easy for them, so perhaps solfah really is the best way to teach it.

I think it's like the difference between learning to read by watching your mother read to you (as I did), or doing it the phonetic route (more mechanical). When I read music, it sounds in my head, like reading words and they all sort of mean something visually, as they do as soon as you can read fluently.

I'm rapidly coming round to thinking solfah must be the best way to teach it - and quite honestly anything that makes aural training as easy and beautiful as Cyrilla makes it sound must be worth a go!

Violinia

[Jade]

What's solfa? :blink:

[tamsin]

The way teacher has 'taught' me to sight sing is by playing what I'm supposed to be singing on flute as I suposably sing whats written. This means I can adjust and correct myself as I go along, again, suposably.

The thing is, doing it that way, I can just about manage it, kinda, but in the exam theres no flute and no way i can correct myself.

As to how I figure out what to sing in the first place, well it's really scientific (sarcasm) more sort of, oh well that notes a bit higher than that one, so I'll sing a bit higher, oh and then there an appegio of the scale, so I'd better sing the appegio, and oh dear, I'm on the wrong note, and how on Earth am I suposed to hit the next one- ah we've got to the end, better sing the tonic note!!

Honestly I am that bad, although I do usually hit the first and last notes!!

[Violinia]

OK, a question - when you're sight-reading a piece of music, do you

(1) see the notes as symbols that tell you where to put your fingers? or

(2) hear it in your head as you read it and then automatically put your fingers in the right places to make the notes you hear?

If you do (1), then sight-singing won't be any different for you from sight-reading and playing your instrument

If you do (2), then sight-singing will bear little or no relationship to sight-reading and playing your instrument, and will be a different skill altogether.

The solution, then, must be to sight-read in the (a) way, otherwise sight-singing will just be too much of a hurdle to overcome as a new skill.

I've been realising recently that there's an enormous danger in teaching an instrument through sight-reading alone, because this is the kind of problem you end up with - the ability to play an instrument but not necessarily by ear, and the ability to sing (maybe) but not sight-sing.

Today a pupil of mine was having trouble playing some notes in tune (D E F#). The E was going flat, which made the F# flat too. I realised she wasn't hearing in her head how it was supposed to sound, so I asked her if she knew do re mi. She did, so I asked her to sing do re mi, starting from D, which I sang to her. She sang it. So I explained to her that the D E F# she was having trouble playing in tune was just that! Something clicked and she immediately played it beautifully in tune, because she was playing it by EAR!!!

Enough said.

Violinia