Learn Chinese Or Japanese?, need opinions... Options

[flute_gurl]

I've been inspired by all the language talk in the forums recently, to start learning new a foreign language. For some reason, european languages don't really appeal to me, and I would really like to learn either chinese (mandarin) or japanese. Or arabic, but that looks quite difficult....does anyone have any opinions on which language would be more fun, easier, or any other opinions?

[bobifier]

Japanese has many levels of politeness, I know that, and it makes it hard to learn. I don't know about Chinese, though.

[JohnS]

Is it a good idea to know someone who already speaks the language well? That way it can be very interactive.

Being a good linguist can often be useful on your CV.

[flute_gurl]

unfortunately I don't know anyone who speaks either language well but I do know someone who I think is learning japanese so maybe we could learn together...

[chocolatedog]

I would say Japanese, but that's only because I learned Japanese, and love it as a language. (Have forgotten most of it now though!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) )

[sarah-flute]

Japanese has fabulously complicated grammar but it's amazing. Mandarin I believe (I don't know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)) has somewhat simpler grammar? But the pronounciation is a bit of a pig.

I really don't know which way to vote (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Oh and Arabic is cool but IMO Mandarin and Japanese are prettier (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Boo Radley]

Oh and Ararbic is cool but IMO Mandarin and Japanese are prettier (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) Ararbic Sarah? Never heard of it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Never learnt Japanese or Chinese but Arabic is a lovely language. To say hello you literally say 'peace be upon you' and to say good morning you say 'morning of the goodness'. There are many turns of phrase that are really much more interesting than English, and I don't find it fantastically difficult. Challenging definitely, but not impossible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[anakrron]

Japanese (only one I can comment on) would be quite challenging. You have to adapt your language depending on the circumstance, your gender, your age & the other person's age, what position they are in compared to you, spoken or written, etc etc. Also, the grammar is really weird. I don't even get it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

If your aim is to be able to speak it, then I think it's achievable with work - but if you are aiming to master all the subtle nuances and to write/read it, it'll probably take a lifetime because of the thousands of characters. It's definitely not an easy choice - but then all non-European languages would be hard because it has a completely different structure to English.

Not trying to discourage you or anything though - it's always great to learn a new language. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[all ears]

Why not think first about what image you have of yourself using your new language in future?

Do you see yourself traveling? Being involved with the country's culture - enjoying their food, reading the literature? Living or working there?

The answers to those questions might clarify which language to pursue. I see you've picked on 3 with non-romanized writing systems but there are differences: Arabic is phonetic, Japanese includes both phonetic and pictogram/ideogram systems, and Chinese uses pictograms/ideograms.

In my case, I've only dabbled in Arabic through the Japanese TV lessons in Arabic, but it's certainly fascinating for anybody who speaks a European language - so near and yet so far!

The further away you get from English, the harder time you will have at the beginning, because you won't have shared vocabulary or similar grammar - but just think, once you've done your "jumping in at the deep end", learning the new language just gets easier and easier. If you pick a language that is very different from English, you will gain a huge amount by actually traveling to the country in question at some point. Once you see the language in action, stuff makes better sense.

Chinese - I've forgotten most of it, but at the lower levels it's not particularly hard. Tonal languages - the concept shouldn't be hard for a musician, and anyway, with CDs etc these days, you can "just do it" first and think about it later (if ever).

Japanese - anakrron, what is this!!! It's not hard! Certainly no harder than any other language I've studied.

The concepts of honorific language take a little getting used to, but the more you use it, the easier it gets. Speakers in every language adjust their speaking to the status of the other person, we just use different techniques. Grammatically, I think that the biggest difference lies in the fact that English is becoming less and less inflected (fewer fiddly verb endings etc), which means that we are also losing flexibility in word order, while Japanese is has more inflected words, and a more flexible word order.

Also, textbooks tend to try and make up "new" rules for teaching Japanese verbs, instead of just teaching it the traditional way, which actually makes sense - it's just based on the Japanese syllabic kana chart. I don't think that Japanese verbs are particularly complex, just that they carry information which in English we attach to different parts of a sentence.

[sarah-flute]

Oh and Ararbic is cool but IMO Mandarin and Japanese are prettier (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) Ararbic Sarah? Never heard of it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[rosfrog]

I'm going to give you first my personal opinion - LEARN JAPANESE!

Now I'm going to give you my responsible opinion as a professional linguist:

Firstly, you should remember that no human language is harder to learn than any other - anyone who says the opposite is talking manifest nonsense. Certainly they all have difficult points and easy points, but the sum of the parts is generally quite balanced. People may tell you that they FOUND a particular language hard to learn - but that is their experience and most likely won't be yours.

Secondly, you should only pick a language you will have a fighting chance of being able to use, otherwise it will become very frustrating as you try to practise. Think about your reasons for wanting to learn and make your decision based on this.

Bear in mind that it is all but impossible to achieve fluency without spending a considerable amount of time in the country where the language is spoken (and that even then, that fluency will dissipate VERY quickly should you leave the country). Achieving a good conversational level is possible, however, with the right kind of learning and support network.

Of the three languages you mentioned, here are some observations:

Japanese probably has the most complex inflexional system of the three (by that I mean the way you express things such as politeness or obligation - for example I do = shimasu, I must do shina nakereba ikimasen). However, this is by no means insurmountable and is great fun to figure out. Japanese also uses three writing systems at the same time. Kanji (derived from Chinese characters). Hiragana (a syllabic alphabet system which is generally used to add all the grammatical bits onto the ends of Kanji - it is possile to write entirely in hiragana - children do so whilst they are learning kanji) and Katakana - another syllabic system of writing used primarily for emphasis (like bold print) or for writing foreign words. Don't fall into the trap of believing that there are thousands of Kanji to learn - many people say that without actually knowing if it is true. Certainly there are thousands in existence, but according to the Japanese government, some 1500 ish are all that are needed to be considered properly literate.

Chinese (Mandarin) is probably the easiest from a grammatical point of view. That being said it has a tonal pronunciation system (the pitch of the sound you use changes its meaning), although this shouldn't pose a problem for a musician (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Here you will need considerably more characters to be literate, however, as there are no syllabic alphabet type systems and every single word is written with one or more characters. That being said, I speak basic mandarin myself and have colleagues who speak it very well indeed - so there's no reason you shouldn't manage it too. The only saving grace with the pronunciation system which has four tones (high, dipping, falling, rising) is that it isn't cantonese which has 7 tones...

Arabic. Most definitely the easiest from a writing point of view. Arabic is simply written using an alphabet (it goes from right to left, whilst numbers go left to right, so that can be a bit hard at first but it won't take you long to get used to) a week or so should be long enough to learn the basics of the writing system. The grammar is relatively tricky, but no harder than say French or Spanish. You major difficulty with Arabic is that Arabic doesn't really mean anything - there is no such thing as Arabic as a language - it describes a group of languages which are all very similar in form. Tunisian Arabic is different from Egyptian Arabic and Maroccan Arabic for example - in extreme cases the dialects may be as different as English and German. The usual approach is for a foreigner to learn what is termed 'classical Arabic' - the language used in Newspapers and on major television channels - in the hope that they can be understood everywhere. Most people will understand you but only the very educated will be able to reply in classical Arabic, so you might have difficulty conversing. If you have access to an Arabic speaking community, then you should aim to learn the kind of Arabic that they speak - at least then you will be able to practise well.

Whatever you choose, make sure it's because you really want to learn it and you plan to be able to use it - learning Japanese without access to any speakers is almost like learning how to play the piano but not having one...

Gambatte Kudasai (good luck / keep at it!)

Allan

[Ifsy]

Being Chinese myself, I would say it is easier to pick up the language.
I speak the language at home, and am currently learning how to read and write it.
(progressing...slowly..(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

Having taken 2 semesters of Japanese at uni, I would say it is not an easy language to master.
It is a beautiful language, but as with any language, you need to understand the culture to be able to appreciate the language. In this regard, I am lucky to have Japanese friends to help me understand the nuances of the language. The grammar is a bit tricky though, since I am used to English grammar:)

Where do you see yourself going with learning either one of the language?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) keep us posted.
Iris

[off_lady]

I've been inspired by all the language talk in the forums recently, to start learning new a foreign language. For some reason, european languages don't really appeal to me, and I would really like to learn either chinese (mandarin) or japanese. Or arabic, but that looks quite difficult....does anyone have any opinions on which language would be more fun, easier, or any other opinions?

As others have said, it depends on your intention to learn a new language. My mother tongue is Cantonese, English is second, Mandarin is third.

Some twenty years ago, I worked in the HK Tourist Association and got in touch with foreigners. I specially wanted to visit Japan and spent a number of years learning Japanese, sat the language proficiency exams and reached high level. My parents are Chiu chowese, I find that some pronunciation are the same between chiu chow and Japanese. I would say some knowledge of other Chinese dialects may help learn Japanese easier, because history said Japanese ancestors were Chinese. (Iris, as someone who can speak Hokkien and Hakka, do you agree on this?)

During that period, when I tried to communicate with Japanese using their language, they could understand me but I could not carry on the conversation further on. Afterwards, I changed job and abandoned the language for many years and forgot mostly of it.

As I am a Chinese, of course I would vote for learning Mandarin, considering China has joined WTO. To echo anakrron, Japanese is a difficult language to master even in speaking, the tone and selection of words are different between female and male. But, on the other hand, the written codes of it are not so strange and weird to us Chinese as Arabic, Russian, or Korean etc.

Amie

[Ifsy]

Some twenty years ago, I worked in the HK Tourist Association and got in touch with foreigners. I specially wanted to visit Japan and spent a number of years learning Japanese, sat the language proficiency exams and reached high level. My parents are Chiu chowese, I find that some pronunciation are the same between chiu chow and Japanese. I would say some knowledge of other Chinese dialects may help learn Japanese easier, because history said Japanese ancestors were Chinese. (Iris, as someone who can speak Hokkien and Hakka, do you agree on this?)

[/quote]
I am not sure abt Japanese ancestors being Chinese, but the influence could have spread to Japan, as evident in their use of Kanji (chinese characters)...
But I did notice some words are pronounced quite closely, between Jap/Korean/Mandarin or even other dialects.
I think the korean greeting of "annyeong" is the same as Mandarin words "An Xiang" and Hakka's "An Yong"
for "How are you? " and "Hope you are well".

Yes/No?

[maggiemay]

I would say Japanese, but that's only because I learned Japanese, and love it as a language. (Have forgotten most of it now though!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) )

Yes - I'd recommend Japanese too - it's a lovely and fascinating language but like CD I'm biased.

Beginner Japanese is not difficult to learn at a conversational level. The pronunciation is straighforward (imho) and you can get into the reading aspects gradually - most courses begin with one of the kana and introduce kanji gradually. You don't need to learn honorific language at this stage because you wouldn't be likely to need it. If you make Japanese friends in your own country, I'm sure they would be quite happy to chat to you in informal language (as they would do naturally), and even if you, say, visit Japan, they 'd not expect a foreigner to use complex language structures.

Speakers in every language adjust their speaking to the status of the other person, we just use different techniques.

Yes. It's true the honorific and humble elements of grammar are a bit complex, and often depend on a quick grasp of social status, and issues which can be quite tricky for a non-Japanese ( plus a good helping of cultural understanding helps). But I wouldn't regard this as a huge problem, and anyway, you don't begin by jumping in the deep end when you can't swim.

Japanese - anakrron, what is this!!! It's not hard! Certainly no harder than any other language I've studied.

Again, agreed. If I can tackle it (in middle age), you certainly can consider it!