Bass Clef Fluency Options

[sarah-flute]

I'm beginning to despair of myself when it comes to reading bass clef fluently on the piano. I'm better at reading it on the cello which I have been learning for about a month!!!!!!! It's crazy. I can even read bass clef better when transposing it to play on flute than I can on the piano. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I'm not bad when it's only the left hand playing, my brain does the necessary decoding pretty well, but as soon as I am playing two hands together I have to know the left hand inside out to have any hope at all of managing it.

Whereas on the treble clef I can instantly translate the note into playing, on the bass clef it's all a bit more tedious and involves more conscious thought.

I know I've read about books to help people to get better at reading bass clef - any such book recommendations or other ideas?

[Morgan's Munchkin]

I don't have any ideas, but I have exactly the same problem. I can transpose it onto flute, or play it with just my left hand, but can't play both together. I normally cheat and write both parts into treble clef!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[Oddball]

Perhaps (bwahahah) you need to indulge yourself in some more scales and technical excercises. Here is my theory.

You can play the notes, so reading the clef is not a problem - you can play it single line on flute and 'cello for instance. Good.

But, you struggle with two hands at once: the co-ordination needs working on. There was a thread on this a while back about the 3 stages of playing a note: recognising, translating to keyboard, playing note etc, and how after time the second step was missed out (or something similar) - this is the same thing. Once you can spot patterns and shapes, it all becomes more fluid, and is easier to do.

So I prescribe some scales for thee - hands together. Try some obscure ones like thirds and sixths for fun.

Whoops! Did I say fun?

Oodles (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sarah-flute]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) meanie!

Thing is, I'm good at scales - they're the only thing I'm good at on piano - I do 3rds and contrary motion in all keys (including some melodics - interesting when contrary!) and 6ths in some... and chromatics in contrary and both hands at weird intervals....... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Maybe I'm just weird. Don't fell obliged to agree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Piano is too haaaaaaaaaaaaaaard (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[nicki_flute]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) meanie!

Thing is, I'm good at scales - they're the only thing I'm good at on piano - I do 3rds and contrary motion in all keys (including some melodics - interesting when contrary!) and 6ths in some... and chromatics in contrary and both hands at weird intervals....... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Maybe I'm just weird. Don't fell obliged to agree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Piano is too haaaaaaaaaaaaaaard (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Sorry, have no advice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif), but yes, it sounds like your brain is mentally getting scared when you see bass notes on music (I presume you don't do scales from a book)...

Aren't there some pieces which are just in the bass clef? Maybe those will help...

(and yes, you are a bit odd (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif))

[sarah-flute]

(and yes, you are a bit odd (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif))

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[SueHM]

What about reading through some simple duets where you play the lower part - many will have both hands playing from bass clef (or is that likely to cause a complete meltdown?!) Agree with above - your brain has to learn to translate bass clef directly into finger movements/patterns. Nothing fo rit but lots more practice I'm afraid... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[sbhoa]

I wonder whether you are trying to read piano music in the same way That I think you might read flute music (or similar)?
What i mean is that, from my limited experience, when playing something like woodwind or brass you tend to see a note and either think of a fingering or the note name.
On piano you don't need to do this and largely read by interval and chord recognition.
If you are trying (maybe not consciously) to read note names in 2 clef at the same time it's not going to be awfully efficient.

[bevpiano]

I think you need to think of it as the bottom half of the great stave, so it's actually an extension downwards of the treble stave, instead of a totally different clef with different notes (if that makes any sense!). I teach my pupils to use the F line as a landmark & read by interval.

You do have to be patient - it does get better gradually. I find most adult pupils take quite a while to become really comfortable with the bass clef, whether they're completely new to music reading or have great experience of reading treble clef. Even some people with experience of bass clef reading find it quite hard on the piano - perhaps it's more to do with learning to read & play with the left hand than the actual clef.

[nic]

I would grab a hymn book (or something similar with plenty of material in it) and do some sight reading everyday. Do it hands together, but read from the bottom of the chord up, if that makes sense - so instead of reading left to right or (as most of my students do) top to bottom, look at the bass first, then the treble for each chord. Slow? Yep. Painful? You bet! ...But it will help! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[noodle]

So I prescribe some scales for thee - hands together. Try some obscure ones like thirds and sixths for fun.

Whoops! Did I say fun?

Oodles (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry Oddy. I don't see how scales can help improve bass clef note reading fluency. I suggest lots and lots and lots and lots of sight reading! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I know, I'm cruel, but the more practice you get the better! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Get a hymn book, song book and get practicing Miss Flute! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[sarah-flute]

I wonder whether you are trying to read piano music in the same way That I think you might read flute music (or similar)?
What i mean is that, from my limited experience, when playing something like woodwind or brass you tend to see a note and either think of a fingering or the note name.
On piano you don't need to do this and largely read by interval and chord recognition.
If you are trying (maybe not consciously) to read note names in 2 clef at the same time it's not going to be awfully efficient.

I don't know - I think I generally read by interval more, especially on bass clef (even when I play flute from the bass clef, I'll get to the right note and play by interval more than by going "ooh, that's a G") - I would have to think for a second to tell you what a note outside the clef (ie with leger lines) is in the bass clef. This is one of my problems, as as soon as you have a piece with large jumps (like the Lyadov I'm murdering at the moment...) it's not really possible to read by interval, and I have heaps of leger lines to deal with which I just can't read fast enough. I don't struggle with the legers at all above the treble clef, I can read instantly up to at least G, and by interval above that. When you're dealing with 4 or 5 legers, you just have to read by interval (well I do!) so it's something I do quite a lot.

The only way I've found to cope is by learning both hands really thoroughly separately, and only then putting them together, but this Lyadov is driving me up the pole because I can't even seem to read it very fluently (without serious mental gymnastics) just left hand alone.

I've only been back to the piano a few years but I started learning bass clef when I was 10... why is this so hard? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[sbhoa]

Write some note names in.
I think most people would do that with too many leger lines and you might only need them temporarily.
You know enough not to overdo it.

[Wobby]

I think you need to think of it as the bottom half of the great stave, so it's actually an extension downwards of the treble stave, instead of a totally different clef with different notes (if that makes any sense!). I teach my pupils to use the F line as a landmark & read by interval.

You do have to be patient - it does get better gradually. I find most adult pupils take quite a while to become really comfortable with the bass clef, whether they're completely new to music reading or have great experience of reading treble clef. Even some people with experience of bass clef reading find it quite hard on the piano - perhaps it's more to do with learning to read & play with the left hand than the actual clef.

I think I used this method whilst I was in early stages of self-learning. The way I learnt the bass clef was via landmarks - I began at the top, with the notes going down being C,B,A. Next landmark to learn was that the penultimate space (I didn't count the under the staff space a space) was the C below middle C. Next, the last space was A. Then, the second line from top is an F, and the one above G. However, when you are looking at these landmarks, do not landmark the name to the 'picture' - landmark the actual visual aid of the key and the playing of that note to the 'picture of the note' instead.

Eventually, you fill in the gaps from there, and you can recognise all the notes. If you get your theory nailed, then in practice, when it comes to practising the practical part in the bass clef, it should be fine!

Alternatively, you could just sight-read loads of basic music for piano - actually, I think I played the same piece over and over again, and had the bass clef nailed from that one piece with help from landmarks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

~Wobby~

[possom]

I definitely read bass clef the same way as treble, ie by interval. I taught myself to grade 3 standard so I had to figure it out myself.

My back-up system consisted of looking at for example the bottom line on bass clef and calling it E the same as treble, but on the piano I presumed that the G I was playing on the piano was actually called E (If that makes sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) ). I guess to sum up, I read both treble and bass clef as the same notes but on the piano I moved the bass clef notes up 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)