Bass Clef Fluency Options

[maggiemay]

Even when I teach sing methods that start in middle C position, I always teach reading from the lowest note on the stave. So if the book is only using 3 notes, we read from A in the bass, B, middle C, then right hand D, E, etc. My students are aware of the concept that if the music is going up, the alphabet runs forwards, and if it is going down, the alphabet runs backwards (I like to challenge them to recite the alphabet from A-G backwards as fast as they can, the little ones love it!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) However, they usually read by interval, and we only learn letter names of notes so that they can communicate with other musicians later in life ("can we go from the D in bar 3").


Apologies to the original poster for moving slightly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/offTopic.gif)

Yes, I do the "backwards alphabet" thing too - can you say it three times without a mistake ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Nic, I'd say that broadly I do many of the same things you do. But I find that some pupils lose their bearings once they have a range of more than about an octave on the music to deal with. However much we use "whole keyboard" in other ways, some find joining music on the copy to notes on the keyboard leaves them a bit at sea. I teach reading by interval too much of the time - once start note is established, but a few less confident readers have found that hopping up ( into the treble) or down (into the bass) stave lines from the middle is a useful way to find start-notes, and has given some a clearer idea of general keyboard geography.

It has uses with leger lines too - younger students have enjoyed counting out the five stave lines (either way), then working out eg how many more lines you need to write the very last note on the keyboard.

[Rosemary7391]

It has uses with leger lines too - younger students have enjoyed counting out the five stave lines (either way), then working out eg how many more lines you need to write the very last note on the keyboard.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

TOO many!! I have never really read by interval, but as I'm primarily a clarinettist that could be why.

[JoeG]

I played Guitar for years before taking up the piano and occasionally in error read the Bass clef as if it was treble, makes for some interesting counterpoint but not very musical. I like the idea of seeing it as one big stave rather than two separate ones.

Problem I have is sight reading or just playing whilst not looking at the keyboard, always hit a note/chord to to the left or right of the correct note, any help here?

[ZeeZee]

My first instrument is piano, which I started playing when I was about 5. Recently I've switched from violin to viola, so I've had to start learning alto clef... to me it feels like I've just always known treble and bass clef, and it's really hard trying to learn a new clef now!

[maggiemay]

I played Guitar for years before taking up the piano and occasionally in error read the Bass clef as if it was treble, makes for some interesting counterpoint but not very musical. I like the idea of seeing it as one big stave rather than two separate ones.

Problem I have is sight reading or just playing whilst not looking at the keyboard, always hit a note/chord to to the left or right of the correct note, any help here?

At the risk of saying something that might be obvious - make sure you are sitting directly in front of the "middle C" group of two black notes. even an inch or so one way or the other will risk throwing your sense of where you are.

I get my students to practise finding their way around with eyes shut. Give yourself a note that is fairly easy to find (eg F below middle C) and locate it. Don't just make a shot in the dark - take time to feel around for the appropriate group of black keys, using the spaces between the groups as landmarks, and work out where the F is. Play it and then look and see if you are right. Then try a treble note. Stay within the stave for the first few times, but gradually progress from note-names to actual positions on the stave. Visualise where it comes in the pattern of black and white keys before you try to locate it.

Sorry if it all sounds like a kid's game - sometimes a few minutes of this at the start of each practice session for a week or two can make quite a difference to your general accuracy and keyboard "geography". Hope my description makes sense.

[Chris H]

I had never thought of the bass clef as going backwards either, until my son's piano teacher mentioned it. I wondered if this was why I had problems remembering the names of the notes in the bass clef - I have always played by recognising the intervals rather than by knowing the names of the notes on the clef, but have been teaching myself recently to name the notes as well. I play notes on ledger lines as well by recognising the intervals. This seems to work most of the time, but I find ledger lines very hard. I was interested to see that teachers actually teach reading by intervals - I developed this myself because I couldn't remember the names of the notes.

[anacrusis]

I'm having the opposite problem - the first instrument for which I really had to learn to read music was the piano, and I have no difficulty at all in reading the bass clef for that; like other contributors, I read by interval recognition and chord patterns, but can also readily identify notes on the stave and up to about three ledger lines each way by name....however, I'm struggling like crazy to make sense of trying to play my new bass recorder from the bass clef because the shortcuts from dot to fingering are wired a different way. Where there is a big imbalance between what your two hands can do quickly, I guess the hands separately approach may help, but I bet it feels sloooooow, doesn't it? I know I'm getting very impatient with my bass playing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) .

[sarah-flute]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Frustrating, isn't it!

[JoeG]

Thanks MaggieMay, I'll give that a try, I comfort myself saying that a semitone out is not bad, at least I'm getting close! I'll give it a few weeks with 5 mins practising as you say and see what happens.

[skylark]

I've resurrected this thread rather than start a new one because it contains some interesting comments and links.

I wonder whether you are trying to read piano music in the same way That I think you might read flute music (or similar)?
What i mean is that, from my limited experience, when playing something like woodwind or brass you tend to see a note and either think of a fingering or the note name.
On piano you don't need to do this and largely read by interval and chord recognition.
If you are trying (maybe not consciously) to read note names in 2 clef at the same time it's not going to be awfully efficient.

I think this is what I'm trying to do, although not necessarily consciously. But because the bass clef isn't "natural" to read in the way that the treble clef is, I do sometimes have to consciously work out what the note is. It wasn't an issue at first, but I'm having more trouble now that I'm playing chords, and trying to do more sightreading. I am getting better at reading the music by interval but instantly recognising, say, the bass note of a chord still throws me when sightreading.

(I mean sightreading in the exam sense, ie looking at it for x seconds then making a reasonably competent job of playing it first time)

My son's piano teacher explained my difficulty with the bass clef as being caused by the fact that the bass clef goes backwards and the treble clef goes forwards (if you see what I mean).

Yes, I think this is how I see it. So if, say, finger 3 is on a note and the next note goes down the clef (ie use finger 4), I will sometimes go up the clef instead and use finger 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) I don't do this when practising a piece I'm learning, but I do it sometimes when sightreading.


I've found this web site and trainer from another forum link - http://www.studybass.com/tools/bassclef-notes/ and I think it's quite a good trainer because you can see your times improve. But I would like to use a trainer for chord recognition - does anyone know of one? I know I'll improve with practice, but I thought a chord trainer might help.

[sbhoa]

Yes, I think this is how I see it. So if, say, finger 3 is on a note and the next note goes down the clef (ie use finger 4), I will sometimes go up the clef instead and use finger 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) I don't do this when practising a piece I'm learning, but I do it sometimes when sightreading.

To help with this I sometimes have my student close their eyes and place their hand (one at a time) on the keyboard. Then I call out either finger numbers or 'step up... skip down etc).
Sometimes having the left hand screwed on the opposite way to the right is a tricky one to sort out.
I did have one 7 year old who pointed out to me that this was far to obvious to be worth mentioning!

[Jazz Chicken]

I've found this web site and trainer from another forum link - http://www.studybass.com/tools/bassclef-notes/ and I think it's quite a good trainer because you can see your times improve. But I would like to use a trainer for chord recognition - does anyone know of one? I know I'll improve with practice, but I thought a chord trainer might help.
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I like this, it's good because it actually times your answers and to be honest my bass clef recognition at speed is not great, and is a downfall to my sightreading.

[Solari]

I've found this web site and trainer from another forum link - http://www.studybass.com/tools/bassclef-notes/ and I think it's quite a good trainer because you can see your times improve. But I would like to use a trainer for chord recognition - does anyone know of one? I know I'll improve with practice, but I thought a chord trainer might help.

There is a program called Noteable that you can buy (it's quite cheap). If you have a digital piano then you can use the MIDI out to press the actual keys for the notes displayed.

There is a free alternative called Jalmus which is good too, but I prefer Noteable.