Pianoworks, Any opinions? Options

[chocolatedog]

Hi - have just got my copy of Pianoworks from OUP......what does anyone else think on first impressions? I'm not sure what to make of it, to be honest - it seems to move extremely fast, and be very "wordy" - that's obviously the intent but knowing my adult pupils I'm not sure whether it would have suited any of them.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[BusyBee]

Thanks chocolatedog for starting this thread because I do have some thoughts about the new tutor. Overall I quite like the no nonsense, straightforward approach and I think it has a good layout with explanations on one page followed by a piece which puts theory into practice.

However, I am quite concerned about the explanation of how to do basic pedalling, which suggests to a pupil that the pedal goes down on the first beat rather than just after it. A lot of help with co-ordination will be needed here. Also, I don't like comparing 6/8 with 3/4 because that mixes up the concept of duple and triple time. I am also quite particular about LH arpeggio fingering on white keys 5 4 2 1 to keep a good alignment of the wrist behind the hand.

I will use the tutor when an opportunity arises as the above is easily explained to the pupil in a lesson and I can give them a reason if I make any changes. I think the tutor might work well - but the pupil will need a teacher to help them through the explanations. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) too but ready to try it out with the right pupil.

The repertoire book that goes with it is quite fun and useful sight-reading material.

[chocolatedog]

Do you think it jumps in rather quickly? I've never had an adult who I think will cope with that - all my adults so far have wanted to start right at the very beginning with absolutely no prior knowledge whatsoever, and move very slowly..........so I've used Faber & Faber with them, which seems to give a very thorough and gentle approach. I tend to abandon it before the end, but it certainly seems to work as a very gentle introduction and assumes nothing..........

[Mrs KW]

I am also quite particular about LH arpeggio fingering on white keys 5 4 2 1 to keep a good alignment of the wrist behind the hand.

Slightly off topic, but would you explain further what you mean by this? I'm a fairly new teacher (two years under my belt now), and have always left it to the pupil to decide whether to use finger 3 or 4 with the LH arpeggio, based on what felt comfortable to them. Have I been too soft?

Thanks

Karen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[organgrinder]

I am also quite particular about LH arpeggio fingering on white keys 5 4 2 1 to keep a good alignment of the wrist behind the hand.

Slightly off topic, but would you explain further what you mean by this? I'm a fairly new teacher (two years under my belt now), and have always left it to the pupil to decide whether to use finger 3 or 4 with the LH arpeggio, based on what felt comfortable to them. Have I been too soft?

Thanks

Karen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have to agree - 5 4 2 1 does ensure a better alignment and position for the left hand. Although it may feel a little more comfortable for some to use 5 3 2 1 I have never found it to be successful. Most of the scale books suggest 5 4 2 1 I believe anyway.

[chocolatedog]

I am also quite particular about LH arpeggio fingering on white keys 5 4 2 1 to keep a good alignment of the wrist behind the hand.

Slightly off topic, but would you explain further what you mean by this? I'm a fairly new teacher (two years under my belt now), and have always left it to the pupil to decide whether to use finger 3 or 4 with the LH arpeggio, based on what felt comfortable to them. Have I been too soft?

Thanks

Karen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have to agree - 5 4 2 1 does ensure a better alignment and position for the left hand. Although it may feel a little more comfortable for some to use 5 3 2 1 I have never found it to be successful. Most of the scale books suggest 5 4 2 1 I believe anyway.

A lot of them say "5 - 4/3 - 2 - 1" for the arpeggio fingering.........

[organgrinder]

I am also quite particular about LH arpeggio fingering on white keys 5 4 2 1 to keep a good alignment of the wrist behind the hand.

Slightly off topic, but would you explain further what you mean by this? I'm a fairly new teacher (two years under my belt now), and have always left it to the pupil to decide whether to use finger 3 or 4 with the LH arpeggio, based on what felt comfortable to them. Have I been too soft?

Thanks

Karen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have to agree - 5 4 2 1 does ensure a better alignment and position for the left hand. Although it may feel a little more comfortable for some to use 5 3 2 1 I have never found it to be successful. Most of the scale books suggest 5 4 2 1 I believe anyway.

A lot of them say "5 - 4/3 - 2 - 1" for the arpeggio fingering.........

I have never seen the option for the fingering in the arpeggios however although other options exist in my book for fingering in scales.

[chocolatedog]

I am also quite particular about LH arpeggio fingering on white keys 5 4 2 1 to keep a good alignment of the wrist behind the hand.

Slightly off topic, but would you explain further what you mean by this? I'm a fairly new teacher (two years under my belt now), and have always left it to the pupil to decide whether to use finger 3 or 4 with the LH arpeggio, based on what felt comfortable to them. Have I been too soft?

Thanks

Karen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have to agree - 5 4 2 1 does ensure a better alignment and position for the left hand. Although it may feel a little more comfortable for some to use 5 3 2 1 I have never found it to be successful. Most of the scale books suggest 5 4 2 1 I believe anyway.

A lot of them say "5 - 4/3 - 2 - 1" for the arpeggio fingering.........

I have never seen the option for the fingering in the arpeggios however although other options exist in my book for fingering in scales.

ABRSM scales manual, plus individual grade scales books (all ABRSM). Which scales books do you use? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[sbhoa]

I use 5-4-2-1 myself but some people seem to feel more comfortable with 5-3-2-1.
My previois teacher did.
I always think it looks awkward though.

[BusyBee]

If a pupil has a finger 4 that 'collapses' they will find it hard to control the 5421 fingering. It's important that the fingers are evenly placed over the keys to enable a free wrist movement. My rationale is to teach a fingering that will serve a pupil well when they get to big, difficult chords later on. For example, the transition from a D minor arpeggio struck all in one go, to a D major shape using 5321 is a lot easier and safer going from 5421.

It's easier to remember fingering groups as well. 5 4 for the white minor 3rds, 5 3 for the white to black key major 3rds etc.

I recall in an old Trinity book that they absolutely insisted on the standard fingering printed in the exam book. The most recent Grade scale books the AB published in the 90s show an alternative 3/4. I don't agree with this but having said that I once had an adult pupil who absolutely refused to use his finger 4 - so not a lot I could do about that - it can be uncomfortable for some pupils - for those with very large hands or who haven't got much stretch between 5 and 4 - like my adult!

Karen - it depends a lot on pupil hand shape - but as a general rule if the LH finger 3 is forced too far to the left using the 5 3 2 1, restricting free movement, then try the 5 4 which I believe is correct - if the pupil can manage it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Perhaps the AB are being too lenient! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

Ow - my wrist aches now trying all this out on the table in front of me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

P.S Chocolatedog - I think a lot of adult tutors go too fast. I've got the Hall, the Alfred and now the Pianoworks all on my shelf and I am hoping to use them all for new adults in the future and see which works best. Running favourite at the moment is the Alfred and Denis Agay 'First Year Piano'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[yamaha]

If a pupil has a finger 4 that 'collapses' they will find it hard to control the 5421 fingering. It's important that the fingers are evenly placed over the keys to enable a free wrist movement. My rationale is to teach a fingering that will serve a pupil well when they get to big, difficult chords later on. For example, the transition from a D minor arpeggio struck all in one go, to a D major shape using 5321 is a lot easier and safer going from 5421.

It's easier to remember fingering groups as well. 5 4 for the white minor 3rds, 5 3 for the white to black key major 3rds etc.

I recall in an old Trinity book that they absolutely insisted on the standard fingering printed in the exam book. The most recent Grade scale books the AB published in the 90s show an alternative 3/4. I don't agree with this but having said that I once had an adult pupil who absolutely refused to use his finger 4 - so not a lot I could do about that - it can be uncomfortable for some pupils - for those with very large hands or who haven't got much stretch between 5 and 4 - like my adult!

Karen - it depends a lot on pupil hand shape - but as a general rule if the LH finger 3 is forced too far to the left using the 5 3 2 1, restricting free movement, then try the 5 4 which I believe is correct - if the pupil can manage it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Perhaps the AB are being too lenient! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

Ow - my wrist aches now trying all this out on the table in front of me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

P.S Chocolatedog - I think a lot of adult tutors go too fast. I've got the Hall, the Alfred and now the Pianoworks all on my shelf and I am hoping to use them all for new adults in the future and see which works best. Running favourite at the moment is the Alfred and Denis Agay 'First Year Piano'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Glad it's not just me who insists on 5421 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Another good reason to use this fingering is that when pupils reach Grade 6, they will have to learn Dim 7th arpeggios and therefore need to use 4 AND 3 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) If they are well used to using their 4th finger this shouldn't prove a problem (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mrs KW]

Thanks for all the replies on arpeggio fingering.

It's interesting that you all take the long view with this one. I suppose my leniency may stem from my pupils all being around the Grade 1 - 3 mark, and being young, so the long term benefits of 5-4-2-1 fingering haven't really come into play yet.

(Writes memo to self) After the summer hols, I'll start enforcing the finger 4 in arpeggios - it will be interesting to see how the darlings take to the new regime!!

Thanks,

Karen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sbhoa]

The first time I ever came across 5-3-2-1 as an option was with my previous piano teacher who used that fingering. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[BusyBee]

I am actually very relieved that we are in agreement about the arpeggio fingering. I sometimes worry when I am teaching it that I'm being too dogmatic and fussy about it. Another thought - using the 4 is also essential in the Grade 3 and 4 broken chord patterns.

Sorry that the thread has wandered away from the original post about the actual tutor book - perhaps I should have started my own separate thread about fingering! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[jojo]

I am actually very relieved that we are in agreement about the arpeggio fingering. I sometimes worry when I am teaching it that I'm being too dogmatic and fussy about it. Another thought - using the 4 is also essential in the Grade 3 and 4 broken chord patterns.

Sorry that the thread has wandered away from the original post about the actual tutor book - perhaps I should have started my own separate thread about fingering! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

Funny this one, I just had to go and sit at the piano as I could not remember what fingering I use (yes, on ABRSM book it says 5 4/3 2 1 so I never gave it too much thought, I said to myself 'well, whether I use 4 or 3 it's ok so whatever, let's not think about it' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
Anyway, just now got up and went to piano and YES: I actually use 5 '4' 2 1!!!

Busybee, you started something addictive!

about the tutor book, have not seen this yet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)