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#1396 katemorrisviolin

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 18:03

QUOTE(niobe @ May 7 2012, 05:59 PM) View Post


Until about 30 mins ago I had no idea that a recorder player had won the BBC Young Musician woodwind section - wasn't she fantastic!

piano.gif


Wasn't she! And she comes across in interview as a mature intelligent lovely young person. Let's hope we get to enjoy lots more of her recorder playing whatever happens in this competition.
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#1397 limh

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 18:39

... she's clearly a multi-talent too...

I'm sorry, I've got questions again. This time two. Firstly, I had a look at a plastic tenor recorder in a well-known 2nd-hand cash-for-things shop, and it had some sort of grease on the joints. Should I be putting something on the joints of my recorder? I have no idea what it was. I don't remember having to when we were at school, but that was a loooong time ago. I didn't dare ask the shop owner.
Also I am not happy with my pinched notes. I love the pure tone of the recorder in its bottom octave, but when I play pinched notes there's a sort of windy sound underlying the main note - I can't really describe it but it's a little bit like the wind blowing across the top of a bottle. I don't know how audible it is from a distance - it may be one of those things that is most obvious to the player. I've tried varying the size of my thumb-hole but all that happens is the general tone of the windiness gives the impression of moving up and down in general pitch (without the proper note changing), but between the extremes where the note fails, I can't make the windiness go away. heeelp!
Sorry to keep asking things - I really appreciate the help.
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#1398 anacrusis

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 22:25

Joint grease - the minimum needed, is my view, and if the instrument is fitting together with just a shade of resistance, so a good seal but not sticking, grease is probably not needed. Admittedly with my wooden instruments I'm oiling them from time to time and don't need anything else - the point is that too much grease can build up and make the instrument really difficult to put together, and even harder to pull apart again. The trouble is that people put more on when an instrument is not going together very easily, thinking to lubricate the tenon, but the result is that it gets more difficult, and a plastic instrument would then need a bit of a wash to get the grease off again. Probably with a soft brush and washing up liquid.....On the other hand joint grease can help if there appears to be a leaking seal with some notes sounding feeble, especially at the bottom of the range.

Some windiness is usual when going up the octave (is it just me, or does that sound vaguely vulgar? ohmy.gif) but yes, thumbhole technique comes into this, as does the quality of the instrument and again, snugness of the joints. I'm probably a bad influence - I've tended to thumb by angling my top thumbjoint, which can cause the nail to dig in rather, but was also a nailbiter once, so have relatively short nails. Do make sure the thumbnail is suitably profiled (I think John Everingham, on the Saunders Recorders website, has a photo of what's suitable and a whole lot more too, here...), and this applies whether you use my technique for half holing or simply draw the thumb pad aside a little. My habit did destroy one thumbhole, on my first treble, of maple, but since then I've got wise and have had my instruments thumbushed at the earliest opportunity. The other thing which affects tone in the upper register is quite simply breath support - you do need enough support. The low pressure nature of recorders means people are often afraid to put enough air through them - one way to tell what's needed is to play some of the lower notes and then push them up the octave without changing thumb position, slowly, and listen for the tone deteriorating just before they jump up. You need at least that sort of support for the lower octave, then a little more yet in the next storey. I hope that makes sense....
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#1399 limh

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 10:29

anacrusis, you're a star. Thanks so much. Lots of peeping-noises from garden shed while I explore wind-pressure. I will also have to borrow my wife's nail-file and stop relying on gardening-abrasion to maintain nail-length... The Saunders site is great: my thumbnail doesn't look like that, and nor does how I use it - work needed!
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#1400 niobe

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:37

QUOTE(niobe @ May 7 2012, 05:59 PM) View Post

My old Schott descant is still in good working order


Have been having fun with the old descant this week but the penny soon dropped that it is horribly flat. Does this suggest deterioration of the wooden instrument -or the player blush.gif - or perhaps both?

Have decided to buy an Aulos treble but want to keep up to speed with the descant so any thoughts on the sound quality of the descant would be appreciated. dust.gif
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#1401 randomsabreur

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 16:06

Scraped some of the rust off the old recorder playing last weekend - in public - playing in the square in Tavistock. A select quintet made it along, and I hadn't made any rehearsals due to transport issues, and bravely volunteered to play tenor (which I've not played since school, and probably not often then as I tended to be a Bass/Treble player in the groups there. Don't own one either! A very kind group member (also forumite) kindly offered me his gorgeous wooden tenor, and I coped OK, just a couple of moments of finding treble fingerings, along with more escaping music/musicstand issues (pretty windy and absolutely freezing). Had to come to a halt after one particular gust which took out 2 music stands, and one other person's music but otherwise found my way through the pieces without too much drama.

The tenor was remarkably easy to play - another thing for my "when I'm a bit richer" list. Not sure whether to go for a plastic tenor (Yamaha as I'm not mad on Aulos generally) or maybe get myself a wooden descant/treble first. Dilemmas, dilemmas, etc. No way can I get bass at the moment, but would love one!
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#1402 katemorrisviolin

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 17:20

QUOTE(randomsabreur @ May 9 2012, 05:06 PM) View Post

Scraped some of the rust off the old recorder playing last weekend - in public - playing in the square in Tavistock. A select quintet made it along, and I hadn't made any rehearsals due to transport issues, and bravely volunteered to play tenor (which I've not played since school, and probably not often then as I tended to be a Bass/Treble player in the groups there. Don't own one either! A very kind group member (also forumite) kindly offered me his gorgeous wooden tenor, and I coped OK, just a couple of moments of finding treble fingerings, along with more escaping music/musicstand issues (pretty windy and absolutely freezing). Had to come to a halt after one particular gust which took out 2 music stands, and one other person's music but otherwise found my way through the pieces without too much drama.

The tenor was remarkably easy to play - another thing for my "when I'm a bit richer" list. Not sure whether to go for a plastic tenor (Yamaha as I'm not mad on Aulos generally) or maybe get myself a wooden descant/treble first. Dilemmas, dilemmas, etc. No way can I get bass at the moment, but would love one!


Brilliant! That's fantastic eh, "turn up and play" music making, love it.

Has anyone done any higher ABRSM recorder grades (6-8) on plastic recorders?
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#1403 katyjay

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 17:40

QUOTE(katemorrisviolin @ May 9 2012, 06:20 PM) View Post

QUOTE(randomsabreur @ May 9 2012, 05:06 PM) View Post

Scraped some of the rust off the old recorder playing last weekend - in public - playing in the square in Tavistock. A select quintet made it along, and I hadn't made any rehearsals due to transport issues, and bravely volunteered to play tenor (which I've not played since school, and probably not often then as I tended to be a Bass/Treble player in the groups there. Don't own one either! A very kind group member (also forumite) kindly offered me his gorgeous wooden tenor, and I coped OK, just a couple of moments of finding treble fingerings, along with more escaping music/musicstand issues (pretty windy and absolutely freezing). Had to come to a halt after one particular gust which took out 2 music stands, and one other person's music but otherwise found my way through the pieces without too much drama.

The tenor was remarkably easy to play - another thing for my "when I'm a bit richer" list. Not sure whether to go for a plastic tenor (Yamaha as I'm not mad on Aulos generally) or maybe get myself a wooden descant/treble first. Dilemmas, dilemmas, etc. No way can I get bass at the moment, but would love one!


Brilliant! That's fantastic eh, "turn up and play" music making, love it.

Has anyone done any higher ABRSM recorder grades (6-8) on plastic recorders?


I used a plastic recorder for the list B piece in my grade 7. That was because it was Alan Bullard's "Fish and Chips" and I wanted the scratchy sound of an old cheap descant to be reminiscent of a seaside organ. It did the trick and I got 30/30 for the piece biggrin.gif

Used wooden recorders for the rest of my grades 7 & 8, but I do know people who have done perfectly well on plastic recorders at those grades.

I used plastic recorders in my grade 8 Practical Musicianship exam.

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#1404 limh

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 19:03

Randomsabreur, I'm seriously impressed, and not just at the instant-play-with-a-group-on-a-different-size talent: How do you cope with the wind? I find it really really hard to play in windy places - it feels like clogging without the clogging.

smile.gif Happy today: I managed to play something (Hotteterre Entr?e du Bal from rustic wedding, far too hard for me, but fun, and carefully chosen because the range isn't too big) within earshot of family (casually with small son's 6-pound Toys-R-us descant, my treble being too serious...). This time small son didn't run off with his fingers in his ears saying "No, Papa!" and Mum actually listened. Maybe before the autumn I'll get permission to practise inside away from wind and cold dampness. Oh, the recorder must be the only instrument you can just find yourself playing in a family environment: I mean, one doesn't just accidentally find oneself in possession of a fully-assembled bassoon...
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#1405 anacrusis

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 23:27

QUOTE(niobe @ May 9 2012, 11:37 AM) View Post

QUOTE(niobe @ May 7 2012, 05:59 PM) View Post

My old Schott descant is still in good working order


Have been having fun with the old descant this week but the penny soon dropped that it is horribly flat. Does this suggest deterioration of the wooden instrument -or the player blush.gif - or perhaps both?

Have decided to buy an Aulos treble but want to keep up to speed with the descant so any thoughts on the sound quality of the descant would be appreciated. dust.gif


Flat is tricky sad.gif - sharp can be pulled out, to an extent anyway, but flat can't be pushed together any further than so far, and recorders being recorders, even if breath support is doing all it can, it won't go higher than so high, I'm afraid. My treble is a bully, and won't let me play at a'=440Hz unless hidden under my vest for about twenty minutes before playing, in cold weather, and then blown with conviction: my husband tends to tune our harpsichord ever so slightly south of that to allow me a chance to play in tune, in winter time sad.gif. Nowadays the European makers are tending to make them about 2Hz sharper, to allow for cold weather and/or a cold instrument, but if your descant is refusing to come up to pitch even when warm and pushed well together, I'm afraid it becomes a practice instrument only, with another being needed for anything ensemble.

'Tis the lot of the recorder player, I'm afraid, to "need" ever more recorders......each time I get another, my mind turns very swiftly to the next again wink.gif. And yes, it's true that players might well find a recorder knocking around in a house (hopefully not in the dog basket though wink.gif), theyd not tend to stumble across a complete bassoon in that way - so the good news is, an individual recorder may not be all that expensive......just the hobby of playing them tends to be.
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#1406 niobe

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 07:48

QUOTE(anacrusis @ May 10 2012, 12:27 AM) View Post

QUOTE(niobe @ May 9 2012, 11:37 AM) View Post

QUOTE(niobe @ May 7 2012, 05:59 PM) View Post

My old Schott descant is still in good working order


Have been having fun with the old descant this week but the penny soon dropped that it is horribly flat. Does this suggest deterioration of the wooden instrument -or the player blush.gif - or perhaps both?

Have decided to buy an Aulos treble but want to keep up to speed with the descant so any thoughts on the sound quality of the descant would be appreciated. dust.gif


Flat is tricky sad.gif -

Anacrusis, many thanks for your helpful reply. I had a sneaky feeling that a flat descant was tricky to deal with, and it will only be used for practice anyway. But it has given good service and must have been played daily at junior school so I think my mother found a good buy in that Schott!
Looking forward to trying out a treble now smile.gif
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#1407 Maizie

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:04

If it's flat enough, maybe you now have a 415 descant biggrin.gif tongue.gif laugh.gif
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#1408 Dulcet

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:00

QUOTE(randomsabreur @ May 9 2012, 05:06 PM) View Post

Scraped some of the rust off the old recorder playing last weekend - in public - playing in the square in Tavistock. A select quintet made it along, and I hadn't made any rehearsals due to transport issues, and bravely volunteered to play tenor (which I've not played since school, and probably not often then as I tended to be a Bass/Treble player in the groups there. Don't own one either! A very kind group member (also forumite) kindly offered me his gorgeous wooden tenor, and I coped OK, just a couple of moments of finding treble fingerings, along with more escaping music/musicstand issues (pretty windy and absolutely freezing). Had to come to a halt after one particular gust which took out 2 music stands, and one other person's music but otherwise found my way through the pieces without too much drama.

The tenor was remarkably easy to play - another thing for my "when I'm a bit richer" list. Not sure whether to go for a plastic tenor (Yamaha as I'm not mad on Aulos generally) or maybe get myself a wooden descant/treble first. Dilemmas, dilemmas, etc. No way can I get bass at the moment, but would love one!


After hearing lovely recordergirl on YMOTY (I really don't like early music but she had us spellbound with her opening number - musicality, performance skills and SOUND all fab, now THAT is the recorder of choice!) no 1 son was inspired to get out the recorder I bought him a few years back and improve his skills. Serendipitously I had an EMS catalogue arrive that day too. I notice that someone (will get catalogue out of bin and check) is making a plastic head wooden body treble these days (aha it's Mollenhauer) - when I bought him his plastic mollenhauer swing I tried the plastic head wooden body one (Prima - this is the one they do in Treble size, a shame they don't do a tenor) and really REALLY loved it, as nice a sound as anything under ?80 - but I thought if he would be joining a school group (! one never materialised) he'd be better with all plastic as the wooden one was slightly flatter. I tried every plastic descant in the shop and the Mollenhauer was by some long way the sweetest.

OK sadly looks like plastic trebles, tenors and basses are made my only a limited no of manufacturers. I was disappointed in the Yamahas myself but maybe the bigger ones are nicer. Worth tryng the Triebert I would think.


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#1409 limh

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:14

Niobe, for what it's worth, my junk-shop treble went up about half a semitone when I cleaned it (it was filthy). It's also just possible it was a mysterious change in how I was playing as I'm a beginner without a good point of reference, but I do wonder it it just had something nasty stuck in it somewhere...

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#1410 katyjay

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:16

QUOTE(Dulcet @ May 10 2012, 12:00 PM) View Post


OK sadly looks like plastic trebles, tenors and basses are made my only a limited no of manufacturers. I was disappointed in the Yamahas myself but maybe the bigger ones are nicer. Worth tryng the Triebert I would think.

I've tried the Triebert tenor and bass. They're good instruments for their price - nice low registers on both, upper notes maybe not the same quality but still acceptable. The very top notes on the bass are a bit sensitive - I had to be very careful of my thumb position for top E, F and G.

The Triebert tenor is a little too stretchy for my hands (especially the G and D holes), but that's a personal thing. You can never tell what will suit you until you try it.
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