Recorder Thread!, All Sizes Welcome... Options

[limh]

ooh, thanks for that. Youtube resolution isn't good, I hadn't spotted the frets. I just love that combination of instruments; they're so different that it shouldn't work, and yet it does, so well. This sounds weird, but somehow a lute sounds like a plucked recorder, which means the two of them combine perfectly as two parts of a trio. The viol is a perfect, versatile and melodic support for them. I'm not sure I understand the idea of underarm bowing though.

[andante_in_c]

ooh, thanks for that. Youtube resolution isn't good, I hadn't spotted the frets. I just love that combination of instruments; they're so different that it shouldn't work, and yet it does, so well. This sounds weird, but somehow a lute sounds like a plucked recorder, which means the two of them combine perfectly as two parts of a trio. The viol is a perfect, versatile and melodic support for them. I'm not sure I understand the idea of underarm bowing though.

Probably better described as underhand rather than underarm! There is quite a good summary here.

[CJB]

ooh, thanks for that. Youtube resolution isn't good, I hadn't spotted the frets. I just love that combination of instruments; they're so different that it shouldn't work, and yet it does, so well. This sounds weird, but somehow a lute sounds like a plucked recorder, which means the two of them combine perfectly as two parts of a trio. The viol is a perfect, versatile and melodic support for them. I'm not sure I understand the idea of underarm bowing though.

Probably better described as underhand rather than underarm! There is quite a good summary here.

That just makes viol players sound untrustworthy!

[limh]

yeah, but at least it doesn't remind me of deodorant.

Thanks for the nice link, andante-in-C. I particularly liked the description of the viol as suitable for "gentlemen, merchants and other men of virtue". The viol sounds a jolly useful instrument, particularly for those of us who live in terraced houses and flats! I can't quite get my head round the difficulties of maintaining an instrument with moveable frets.

[anacrusis]

Once the frets are in place for correct tuning, little need be done - they tend mostly to stay put, and if they do go wonky it's visually (as well as aurally) very obvious.

There is also a Bach cello suite which needs a cello with an extra string on to fit in all the notes, or did I mean two extra strings? There again, there is also a bit of erudite arguing to and fro about just what instrument they were originally intended to be played on....and since baroque practice includes instrumentalists nicking each other's music, that means the cello suites are great on recorders too, muahahaha.....


I agree about the balance of lute/recorder/viols - all have well-matched timbres, and the one time I was lucky enough to do some jamming with a theorbo player, I was a very happy bunny for a couple of hours (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif).

[katemorrisviolin]

I had a very happy evening last night, a new aquaintance who hopefully will become a nice friend, a violinist I met at my string group, came round to play some duets with me. She's ridiculously good, went to a conservatoire but gave up playing 10 years ago for a career in finance. She's wanting to get back into playing and was complaining she was rusty, but to my untrained ears she played like an angel. After an hour of fierce concentration on my part, my violin technique was going to pot. The difference between our ability was really obvious, though she was very kind to me. She had some violin/flute duets with her so I changed to recorder, and oh what a joy and relief that was, what a beautiful sound the two instruments make together, they go so well and I felt so much more happy, comfortable and musical playing recorder. I think this experience has made up my mind: I'm a recorder player who also plays a violin, rather than the other way round (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tenor Viol]

Have just been watching some of my favourite performers again:
an Israeli group playing a Bach trio sonata.
As a fairly non-musical person I was wondering what looked odd about the Cellist. Do Baroque Cellos have more strings than modern ones? And is there something different about that bowing hand? I thought people usually bowed wrist-inwards, but she's bowing wrist-outwards? I've never played strings.

Oh they're great though. I really love lute, and that recorder player just makes me happy too. They work so well together.

The bass instrument is actually a bass viol, or viola da gamba. It has six strings and frets, and is bowed underarm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Have a look at my profile photo - you'll see a tenor and bass viol next o a cello.

Once the frets are in place for correct tuning, little need be done - they tend mostly to stay put, and if they do go wonky it's visually (as well as aurally) very obvious.

There is also a Bach cello suite which needs a cello with an extra string on to fit in all the notes, or did I mean two extra strings? There again, there is also a bit of erudite arguing to and fro about just what instrument they were originally intended to be played on....and since baroque practice includes instrumentalists nicking each other's music, that means the cello suites are great on recorders too, muahahaha.....


I agree about the balance of lute/recorder/viols - all have well-matched timbres, and the one time I was lucky enough to do some jamming with a theorbo player, I was a very happy bunny for a couple of hours (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

Would you please explain that to frets 6 and 7 on my tenor viol? They have peregrinatory tendencies... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Once the frets are in place for correct tuning, little need be done - they tend mostly to stay put, and if they do go wonky it's visually (as well as aurally) very obvious.

There is also a Bach cello suite which needs a cello with an extra string on to fit in all the notes, or did I mean two extra strings? There again, there is also a bit of erudite arguing to and fro about just what instrument they were originally intended to be played on....and since baroque practice includes instrumentalists nicking each other's music, that means the cello suites are great on recorders too, muahahaha.....


I agree about the balance of lute/recorder/viols - all have well-matched timbres, and the one time I was lucky enough to do some jamming with a theorbo player, I was a very happy bunny for a couple of hours (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

Wasn't here a hybrid beast called a "quinton" or something similar? Bach did write for bass viol.

[anacrusis]

he did indeed - my husband tuned for the recording Trevor Pinnock and Jonathan Manson did of the sonatas for bass viol and obbligato harpsichord.... *name-drop, name-drop* - gorgeous stuff, those sonatas (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif).

I know, frets do wander sometimes - though the little tenor viol hanging on our living room wall behaves itself remarkably well that way. Just one of the strings doesn't, instead....I suppose it would help if it didn't resemble fishing line so markedly.

Today I got to hear les Arts Florissants doing a sort of compound opera of operas - five vignettes of French opera from the baroque, sort of tacked end to end to make a bigger opera. Four singers- soprano, alto, tenor, bass, and a small orchestra comprising violins, violas, celli, a bass viol,theorbo, trumpets, oboes, recorders (replaced by baroque flutes for the later work), harpsichord and a bassoon. I'm generally a bit intimidated by singery, but this was fabby - and hearing all those mad baroque French ornaments, and waiting to see which of the bass players was going to be the one to do the unbearably suspended appoggiatura before the resolution in the final chord was such fun, as were the zany tambourines, and later the castanets (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) . I did get a bit sidetracked by the bass singer's shoes (two tone very shiny Oxfords) and socks (wackily striped), and also by the co-ordinated dipping of heads, as if swimming, of bass violist, theorbist, harpsichordist and double bassist, but mostly it was just a luscious indulgence of some really fine musicianship...


...and yes, one of my facebook friends did suggest Pseud's Corner for me, sorry about that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif).

[limh]

There's nothing wrong with noticing socks and being a pseud, and I like it when people share fun performances. Also nothing wrong with name-dropping. I should listen more carefully to how Beautifully Tuned things are...(feel sorry for tuners: it's a profession that's only ever noticed when it's all gone wrong).

I am in a bad mood and very grateful to this clip for reminding me that recorder can sound nice. I've been pootling round Youtube and listening to different people playing. Almost everyone who is over age 20 and playing alone in their own front room plays, I think, awfully (I'm pretty sure they'd disagree). OK, better than me, but absolutely not what I want to emulate. Loads of vibrato (OK, I'm suffering from sour grapes because I can't really do it anyway, but I really don't like it overdone - a very, very little goes a long way). With older music, I can't tell where the tune is going. And with traditional folk-tunes it all seems deadly serious, as though they were a matter of life or death, with vast expressions of unbearable emotion, which is just too much (for me). Since I'm over 20 and likely to play alone in my front room, I'm now seriously worried. Have I just been unlucky, and actually there are over-20's on youtube who play really nicely alone? Have I just got bad taste and actually all these performances are wonderful? Or is Youtube not the best repository of soloists?

So I'm sticking to listening to accompanied players and groups for a bit.

Sorry to rant. glad to get that off my chest.

[anacrusis]

Part of the problem I think is living room acoustics: in general there are soft furnishings, low ceilings, and often somewhat substandard recording apparatus too. I have recordings at home of whatever I've been playing, done in my dining room (wooden floor, but definitely not concert-hall sized) or living room (also now wooden-floored), and they don't even get close in sound quality to the one I actually have up on youtube, at St Cecilia's Hall in Edinburgh, simply because the latter has the most wonderful acoustic properties, providing superb aural feedback to musicians, and enough resonance to enhance the sound rather than dampen it. In the case of my own bits and pieces of recording, we used the same bit of kit to do both, so it's fair comparison of the two sorts of space.

I agree about vibrato though - can't stand that sort of bleating, evenly spaced, overlaid-without-discrimination vib, and I wish musicians in general were less anxious to acquire vibrato - I know it's needed for power in more modern playing, but so few learn to use it expressively (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif).

[recollect]

Part of the problem I think is living room acoustics: in general there are soft furnishings, low ceilings, and often somewhat substandard recording apparatus too. I have recordings at home of whatever I've been playing, done in my dining room (wooden floor, but definitely not concert-hall sized) or living room (also now wooden-floored), and they don't even get close in sound quality to the one I actually have up on youtube, at St Cecilia's Hall in Edinburgh, simply because the latter has the most wonderful acoustic properties, providing superb aural feedback to musicians, and enough resonance to enhance the sound rather than dampen it. In the case of my own bits and pieces of recording, we used the same bit of kit to do both, so it's fair comparison of the two sorts of space.

I agree about vibrato though - can't stand that sort of bleating, evenly spaced, overlaid-without-discrimination vib, and I wish musicians in general were less anxious to acquire vibrato - I know it's needed for power in more modern playing, but so few learn to use it expressively (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif).

Part of the problem I think is living room acoustics: in general there are soft furnishings, low ceilings, and often somewhat substandard recording apparatus too. I have recordings at home of whatever I've been playing, done in my dining room (wooden floor, but definitely not concert-hall sized) or living room (also now wooden-floored), and they don't even get close in sound quality to the one I actually have up on youtube, at St Cecilia's Hall in Edinburgh, simply because the latter has the most wonderful acoustic properties, providing superb aural feedback to musicians, and enough resonance to enhance the sound rather than dampen it. In the case of my own bits and pieces of recording, we used the same bit of kit to do both, so it's fair comparison of the two sorts of space.

I agree about vibrato though - can't stand that sort of bleating, evenly spaced, overlaid-without-discrimination vib, and I wish musicians in general were less anxious to acquire vibrato - I know it's needed for power in more modern playing, but so few learn to use it expressively (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif).

I agree with you about vibrato Anacrusis!

[limh]

I've calmed down a bit now. Yes, I'm sure you're right; recording things is by no means trivial, and an average house room isn't the ideal ambience. Listening again to one of the recordings I most disliked, the player seems to be chewing gum at the same time as playing; I'm not sure what's going on in their mouth, but there are outward signs of vast subterranean movements. The whole of their mouth and throat is like watching porridge on the simmer. I've seen a few players who look as though they've got a boiled egg in their mouth while playing, and one in particular makes totally heavenly noises while doing so; no idea what's going on in there!

The strange thing is that there isn't much correlation between technical skill/correctness of playing, and musical satisfaction for me; I found another recording of the same tune that had quite a few minor mistakes and fumbles, but sounded much more honest, unexaggerated, and enjoyable.

I still worry that it's easy for those of us who learn alone, as adults, to wander into blind alleys of poor taste, with no audience to tell us. As soon as I can afford one, I need a teacher... But for the moment I'll stick to trying to work out how to get from E-flat to F smoothly. Which has been a bugbear for several weeks now. I'm doing the long-short-long-short thing as recommended here, but still not sure how good an outcome I can expect before it's time to move on. Oooh, getting grumpy again, time to go and enjoy afternoon sunshine...

[limh]

And just to cheer me further, this clip!. Just the freshness and naivite that works so well on recorder. Now my mission is to find something equally beautiful played by a boring-looking old bloke (or two), just to prove it can be done.

[anacrusis]

Given your sensitivity to what you're hearing already - I very much doubt you'll head into blind alleys of poor taste (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). The thing is, we all do know something of what we like, and what we don't, and will try to make music which pleases us, in order to be able to please others too. Youtubing is done for a variety of reasons - my son for instance has a private channel, and after buying his ukulele put up a recording on there every few days, and now, some twelve weeks down the line, has a lovely record of his own progress, and can plan how he intends to develop his playing next. Others may be putting up recordings to show friends or family, and I put mine up because it was the best bit of a performance I'd done at a peak in playing, ie just before a big exam....the rest of that concert ain't going up there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)....and others again may be starting out on careers and wish to use that forum as part of their CVs.

In terms of emulating players, your taste quite naturally will come into that too. I can admire Pamela Thorby's playing on a technical level, and am always stunned at how floridly she ornaments her music, but it's not the way I want to play because I have a stiffer personality than that, and could never make such frills sound natural or good. Piers Adams has fire and verve, but pushes boundaries in a different way, playing at tremendous speeds, but not worrying all that much about the sweeter end of recorder sound - I couldn't pull off his theatrical approach, and so hanker more for the sweetness instead. I know what you mean about not wanting to emulate what you hear, but I tend also to listen in order to hear what others find in the music.....and secretly (not so secretly now!) will feel a bit pleased when I can actually think, hey, I could do that, and might even do it more to my taste than they are doing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif).

The dropped jaw look is common amongst players - and I do know it works well to help with resonance and therefore volume at the bottom end of the instrument's range - it also clears the airway better for inhaling. I'm a depressingly noisy breather, and when one forums member, who sings, visited me one time, I was shown how to make that air intake less restricted - and part of that does involve letting the jaw relax too.

[limh]

Thanks for the encouraging words! What a clever way to use YouTube, like a Facebook Timeline of progress... nice idea. Actually, after reading what you wrote, I'm becoming more grateful to the Youtubers for offering such a full palette of styles to which I can listen. I also enjoy it when people here say who they like, and who they admire, even those they wouldn't personally copy; everyone's style has to suit them, and it's great to hear other approaches. You mentioned Piers Adams before I think, and gave me some Wow things to watch.

About noisy breathing: a related issue, I'm finding longer, sustained melodies hard; the issue is how to stay alive on the limited amount of air that can reasonably go through a treble recorder. It's hard enough to make an intake of breath in the middle of something, without trying to breathe for physiological reasons too! I gather this is a horrible problem for oboe players, but it bothers me too, particularly if I'm playing directly after any form of physical activity.