Would This Be Legal..., ...In your country? Options

[barry-clari]

I would suggest talking to her may be a way forward. Calmly. I think you do know your stuff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Otherwise, you're probably going to have to stick with her methods. I've had conductors before that don't perhaps conduct in an ideal way/do the things I think would be good, but sometimes, I'm afraid that's life.

[notmusimum]

I know it won't help but Music provision in the uk isn't all that it could be either at times. My youngest has spent the whole of this school year teaching someone to play guitar. the teacher had the cheek to write on her Report that she had been learning to play guitar since September. I wonder why I'm paying for Guitar lessons (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Hope things sort themselves out for you soon but this Teacher's attitude is something you will come across in life at least you'll get some skills in how to deal with these things.

[neilthecellist]

You make some very valid points Neil. Have you tried talking to her or your head of department about it?

Get this: She is the head of the Department of Music at my school. Pathetic, huh?





I have, however, one time contacted the school principal:



I told W that I was thinking of dropping the class at semester. Naturally, I expected her to say, "You shouldn't" but instead, she said, "You're not allowed to. It's against the rules."



Not believing her, because I've dropped a music class before, I decided to go the principal to ask. What did the principal say?



"Of course you can! Who said you couldn't?"

"Ms. W."

"Really?"

"Yeah, and she was going to call my parents and lie to them about it too."

"Oh my. I'm going to have a talk with her then."



Not only did my conductor get in trouble after that, my parents actually got on the phone and were furious over the whole matter. My parents are Asian immigrants who aren't very good at English, but when I told them that my teacher was going to effectively lie to my parents about me not being able to drop the class… They got very very very mad.



Imagine what they said, I won't post it here… It would be against forum rules.





But guess what?



Ms. W still teaches here. The principal only gave her an administrative warning.

[thefunkygibson]

I once had a conductor who conducted the Sleeping Beauty Waltz, in TWO.

Yes. A waltz. Conducted in TWO BEATS.

Madness. Admittedly we're not pre-professional or anything but it's nice when conductors can wave their arms around with a semblance of being right.

Hope it gets better at least, but it's a shame when these things happen, especially if you know you could do better haha.

[neilthecellist]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, we've just got a new head of music in our school who is infintely better than the last one, who retired at 65 two years ago.

When I was in the Senior Orchestra, she conducted the Sleeping Beauty Waltz, in TWO.

Yes. A waltz. Conducted in TWO BEATS.

Madness. Admittedly we're not pre-professional or anything but it's nice when conductors can wave their arms around with a semblance of being right.


I do feel your frustration with poor conducting though, the conductor of my regional orchestra is a nice enough man and all the rest but his conducting is a bit iffy in places, sometimes when the orchestra's doing its own thing he'll just change his beat to match ours. But at our summer residential we were doing the Young Persons Guide to the Orchestra, and the fugue at the end just descended into madness every single time, and it was pretty much his conducting that was doing it - even the tutors were saying "just listen and look at your parts". It was a shame because it made the course so much less fun and everyone was really stressed about it. So I feel ya, mate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hope it gets better at least, but it's a shame when these things happen, especially if you know you could do better haha.

Oh my. A waltz should be conducted in one, at the most, in three.



Sergiu Celibidache once said that there isn't a need to subdivide, since that should always be done mentally. I am of the same school of thought. I NEVER subdivide unless the musicians are TRULY incapable (of which they shouldn't even be in my class then)



What is the Young Persons Guide to the Orchestra? I heard it once through eavesdropping… The impression I got was that it's a UK-government-sponsored advocacy program to get more and more children into music. I may be wrong, of course. I'm not British. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)



Makes me want to leave this school already, but not before I can make sure I can leave the orchestra in peace and not let it falter even more than it already has.

[Alder]

I know nothing about conducting, but I did recognise this.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Young_Per...o_the_Orchestra

[snhs]

Sorry but in a school context what happened four years ago, or even last year, can have very little bearing on the current quality of a group. Remember that turn over of players is vastly in excess of that of professional orchestras and with it being the 'top' string group its likely that its players are mainly comprised of the older students.

It is possible to have players who are individually fabulous musicians but put them in a group context and their playing can be useless. It doesn't really matter what studies they play or even how fast they play them, in an ensemble context listening is far more important, as you'll know. Intonation is also more down to individual players than the conductor, so if the players aren't listening enough to keep in tune its unfair to blame her.

Well a professional conductor, who at the time was the principal guest conductor of a national orchestra, left the bow markings almost entirely up to the leader, only intervening when he wanted a specific technique/effect used. Apart from anything else you're contradicting your earlier position on how much a conductor should know e.g.Why should a conductor, who has spent his whole career playing the flute, suddenly start telling string players who have been playing for decades how they should move the bow/in what way etc. (unless they want a specific effect other than the norm). I could see your point if it were a conductor who was a string player, however isn't it just as likely that the teacher is treating the group as she would a professional ensemble, leaving the bowings to your leader.

How is it possible for you to know specifically that its her fault? If you're playing in an ensemble its easy to blame the conductor when something is going wrong, but its not so easy to be aware of players at the back who may be slowing down. The effect, particularly if its a rhythm/bass section, can slow down the whole group before the conductor has time to compensate and then if they continue playing slowly it can become irretrievable, you can't always hold her responsible for how the rest of the group is playing.

Could you be misunderstanding her in this case? Perhaps she meant they weren't making enough of a contrast, i.e. they needed to get louder by the end of the phrase is order for the sub. to have its proper effect. Apart from anything else are you a personal friend of Elgar? Just because he wrote something last millennium doesn't mean its to be inviolable and worshipped. I'm sure he was a great guy, but i'm also sure this isn't the first time a conductor has done something which was in direct conflict with what the composer wrote and i'm fairly certain conductors at a far higher level have done just that.

If every conductor could her the music exactly as the composer did as he wrote it that would be great, but its not so get over it. If you want to truly realise it as the composer wrote it we'd all need to use period instruments, conductor's would probably need to go back to wearing wigs as that is how the composer would have envisioned it being performed etc.

You're the conducting student so why might she want it to slow down? Composers don't write everything in, maybe they want a massive accelerando, but its already going at a lively allegro what does a conductor do to compensate taking into account the fact the players can't all go that fast? Answer: One option is they slow it down before hand, maybe your conductor has decided she wants to make more of a tempo contrast or leave more room to accentuate a later passage or any one of dozens of options. If you're wanting to do conducting you have a perfect excuse to ask her why she is doing it, apart from anything else she may have conducted previously from a different version of the piece which may be more/less accurate than the one you've studied.

I think if you disagreed with Karajan, or conducted a rehearsal in his absence and informed him of some new discovery you'd made on how to improve his interpretation, you may find him less than amused. She probably will know what the terms mean, but to be perfectly honest i don't think its going to endanger her position either way and i don't think you complaining about it to anyone one in school or anywhere else will have any effect. The only way you're going to achieve anything is by working with her on it and so long as she's the teacher/conductor her decision will be final.

You do get bad conductors and you get that even with professional orchestras, not very often but occasionally, its not really paper qualifications that are most important though. As part of job interviews a few years ago we had an ensemble put together for them to conduct and the 'best qualified' candidate on paper, with a doctorate various other bits of paper etc was by far one of the worst conductors. Part of that may be conductors are born not taught, but it didn't have anything to do with staying true to the intent of the composer. The whole point of music is to enjoy it and you really can't enjoy playing music if its treated as some ossified relic in which nothing can be changed.

If you did that to most classes they would laugh at you, i assure you. You don't need to be some master of metaphors to conduct as long as you convey what you want and sometimes it best to do it simply (and our doctorate guy did something similar and wasted a significant portion of the rehearsal as a result).

[neilthecellist]

Sorry but in a school context what happened four years ago, or even last year, can have very little bearing on the current quality of a group. Remember that turn over of players is vastly in excess of that of professional orchestras and with it being the 'top' string group its likely that its players are mainly comprised of the older students.

It is possible to have players who are individually fabulous musicians but put them in a group context and their playing can be useless. *snip*

How is it possible for you to know specifically that its her fault? If you're playing in an ensemble its easy to blame the conductor when something is going wrong, but its not so easy to be aware of players at the back who may be slowing down. The effect, particularly if its a rhythm/bass section, can slow down the whole group before the conductor has time to compensate and then if they continue playing slowly it can become irretrievable, you can't always hold her responsible for how the rest of the group is playing.

Could you be misunderstanding her in this case? Perhaps she meant they weren't making enough of a contrast, i.e. they needed to get louder by the end of the phrase is order for the sub. to have its proper effect. Apart from anything else are you a personal friend of Elgar? Just because he wrote something last millennium doesn't mean its to be inviolable and worshipped. I'm sure he was a great guy, but i'm also sure this isn't the first time a conductor has done something which was in direct conflict with what the composer wrote and i'm fairly certain conductors at a far higher level have done just that.

You're the conducting student so why might she want it to slow down? Composers don't write everything in, maybe they want a massive accelerando, but its already going at a lively allegro what does a conductor do to compensate taking into account the fact the players can't all go that fast? Answer: One option is they slow it down before hand, maybe your conductor has decided she wants to make more of a tempo contrast or leave more room to accentuate a later passage or any one of dozens of options. If you're wanting to do conducting you have a perfect excuse to ask her why she is doing it, apart from anything else she may have conducted previously from a different version of the piece which may be more/less accurate than the one you've studied.
*SNIP*

Let me clarify:

The players from last year are roughly the same as this year, with the exception of a few additional students. Having been in the ensemble the longest, I know the capabilities of each student. I know that musicians don't DEGRADE over the years. Having a teacher say "Play all the way!" in a baroque piece for a short quarter note not only makes no sense, but is physically impossible, and as principal cellist/the section leader, I've actually had to confess to my section of cellists to "cheat with the bow" to make up for the non-sensical requests from the teacher.

As far as how I know the teacher is wrong… I just know. Sure, it's easy to question "Well maybe she meant" or "There's a possibility that…" but if we wanted to do that, we could spend 400 pages discussing every endless possibility.

However, that answer won't satisfy your intents, I'm assuming, so let me rephrase:

Once, I suffered a lung collapse and had to get lung surgery. Upon returning to school, my doctor said "no playing the cello." So I sat down in rehearsals but didn't play… Just watched. By definition, not having to play with the group meant that 100% brainpower could be allocated on focusing SOLELY on my teacher's conducting. And I still noticed the same thing. She was slowing down, blaming the ensemble for her mistakes.

I mean, come on, are you and I going to debate over the following scenario?

Molto accelerando e stringendo. "Why are you guys speeding up??!"

It's a matter of knowing what accelerando or stringendo means. That's only one way of many that I know my conductor's wrong. Let's move on from that, shall we?

Indeed, Elgar is dead. And no, I'm not a super-fan of Elgar. I am a student who is dedicated to the music, ANY music for that matter. In fact, I'm not one who personally likes Elgar, but if given the position of teaching the music, I realize that I must do what is necessary for the purpose of letting the students learn what the piece is all about.

I am metaphorical when it comes to all pieces, ranging from the Dvorak Serenade for Strings to the Tchaikovsky Pathetique Symphony (in a different ensemble). I can even be just as allured-in-descriptions when it comes to Baroque pieces, such as any of Corelli's Concerti Grossi.

[snhs]

If softer is all that needs to be said then say it, don't go into some rubbish about waterfalls or canoes unless they're not doing what you want.

Its not what the composer wanted, its can only ever be the conductor's interpretation of what the composer wanted and sometimes it is just as simple as forte or piano. It is possible for something to sound nice without some profound/tragic/horrific/happy notion behind it, listen to music play music to enjoy it not for whether it keeps true to every dot a dead guy wrote on a bit of paper a hundred years ago.

The only way the 'apocalypse of music' will come about is if people turn it in to such a rarefied field that only people with a masters or above can understand whats going on.

Why should a teacher loose they're job because of one student complaining, or one tiny detail about the schools rules which they didn't know about? Yes it would have been better if she had known, or if she'd checked first, but unless you can prove that it wasn't a genuine mistake then you have no case.

[snhs]

Key words: 'roughly the same'. One student or even two leaving an ensemble can have a significant effect, equally one or two joining who aren't up to the same standard yet or aren't as familiar with that type of group can easily be responsible for all the problems you've mentioned. I never said they degrade i said that they changed and if you've been in it longest then obviously all those players from four years ago, with the list of musical accomplishments are now irrelevant.

It might make sense according to what she has been taught, for all you know she was taught at university by an expert on baroque music who held a view against the accepted one. Get used to it professionals cheat, sometimes conductors ask the impossible, thats why they're conductors. With another orchestra we were looking at a piece where there was a rapid alternation between two notes, i think it was 16-ths, the pro flautist told us all to just trill, when someone pointed out that it was not marked he said the orchestra had always played it that way, under several different conductors (none of whom had noticed the 'cheat').

Yes and until you accept that you accept that your view is equally, if not more, likely to be wrong than her's then we can keep going on for the aforementioned 400 pages. (Good assumption by the way i hadn't even read further on yet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)) Again it could be a matter of effect etc, still as you've said not much point in arguing it.

If you inspire pupils they're not going to care how much of a stickler you are for every detail, or how ridiculous your metaphors might sound (i vividly remember one invoking a dog in a microwave), but at the end of the day she has learnt the theory of how to educate children. There may be a method to it that you don't get yet, or you've not been taught, passion is great but passing it on is just as important.

[neilthecellist]

If softer is all that needs to be said then say it, don't go into some rubbish about waterfalls or canoes unless they're not doing what you want.

Very true, assuming the musicians are motivated enough to understand the emotional demands of the music. Elgar, as you may have known from research, was a man "of massive effects", according to one scholar (do you guys put periods outside of the quotation mark in Britain? Just curious.)



However, the fact remains that, when the teacher simply says, "softer", the message doesn't get through to the minds of the musicians, not as easily as it does when you use the waterfall analogy. Especially when you're trying to describe the finale of the piece, when the dynamics in the music say "fff" while the teacher doesn't even go over dynamics in that particular section (while the musicians are clearly playing at a pathetic p), saying "play louder" didn't work when I was on the podium. The waterfall analogy, on the other hand, seemed to have opened Pandora's Box.



I think you and I can agree on the following maxim, although I will admit there is a sense of paradox in it:



Every ensemble has its own way of achieving success.



What is success? Well, that's defined by state and national standards for music education. (see http://www.menc.org/publication/books/standards.htm for the national standards)



What is the ensemble's own way? Well, that depends on the ensemble and the methods available! Obviously, as I said earlier, saying "Play louder" didn't have an effect. But going into the riveting description of metaphors got the effect needed. And the players were grateful, not to me, but for themselves (maybe they were grateful to me, but I could care less but my reputation in that sense, it's the music that counts in that moment).

It's not what the composer wanted, its can only ever be the conductor's interpretation of what the composer wanted and sometimes it is just as simple as forte or piano. It is possible for something to sound nice without some profound/tragic/horrific/happy notion behind it,

True as well. However, if you've listened to a recording of Introduction and Allegro by Elgar, or read any description of it, you would realize that it was one of England's most epitome works of the 20th century. No, seriously. Listen to the last 5 minutes of it. Any recording. Tell me that it doesn't sound majestic or profound, because honestly, it's just not possible.



Yes, you're are right that is possible for something to sound nice without those strings attached, but if that were the case… Andrew Davis wouldn't exist, Leonard Bernstein wouldn't have attended music school, and Sergiu Celibidache wouldn't be a master of the Zen philosophy while at the same time a conductor. And by-golly, Seiji Ozawa wouldn't memorize his music and would only conduct as if conductors are only to be human metronomes.

Why should a teacher loose they're job because of one student complaining, or one tiny detail about the schools rules which they didn't know about? Yes it would have been better if she had known, or if she'd checked first, but unless you can prove that it wasn't a genuine mistake then you have no case.

Because the investigation by the principal revealed that she had been doing this the past four years, and despite previous complaints by other parents for other children that she shouldn't have been telling them that they had no right to drop, the parents decided not to pursue the matter anymore. What the principal of my school revealed was that what she was doing was completely intentional, she was perfectly aware of the rules. I even told her myself with paper in hand, but she didn't believe me, not until I took it straight to the administrative level. And yet, THAT didn't get her fired. I can see why, though, that you believe that that shouldn't merit a teacher getting fired, especially with California schools getting lack of proper funding.



Summarized: She did know.









May I ask you this: Are you or have you ever seen a conductor, either professional, pre-professional, or even a student conductor, conduct? Because it seems from the material in your posts that you think conducting is just an act of keeping tempo. It's not. NO conducting textbook, be it a choir textbook, an orchestra textbook, a band textbook, or even an opera textbook, will ever describe conducting as an act of merely holding the tempo. Not even in the Baroque era, my friend.



I cite the following textbooks:



Modern Conductor, The, by Elizabeth Green

The Art of Conducting by Hunsberger

The Cambridge Companion to Conducting

The Cambridge Companion to Orchestra

Principles of Orchestra by Stravinsky

Teaching Music with Passion by Robert Garofalo



[quote name='snhs' date='Jan 5 2008, 03:35 PM' post='652193'There may be a method to it that you don't get yet, or you've not been taught, passion is great but passing it on is just as important.[/quote]



Or the lack of passion. Seriously, her conducting is literally just to point out the tempo. I could hire a businessman…



There was actually a story about it:



One day, a wealthy businessman heard a Mahler symphony, and decided on a whim to conduct it. He hired a tutor to teach him the basic movements in one lesson, then fired the tutor.



The businessman then proceeded to hire an orchestra and performed the piece with "great success" as deemed by many critics.



After several performances, however, a critic began to notice that the businessman wasn't really doing anything. The audiences were so previously focused on the musicians that they didn't notice the conductor wasn't doing anything except giving very basic beats that you could learn on the first day of being a music-ed major.

[organ_dummy]

I agree with some of the points raised by other forum members.

Obviously you have a passion for orchestral playing and conducting, and you know a lot about conducting. Your musical ability may be way beyond what is expected of a secondary school student. I can understand that it is quite frustrating for you to deal with mediocre playing or leadership now.

Obviously you have been very lucky to be able to work with a competent conductor in the past, and you wish the same could continue till the end of your high school life.

But you have to face the fact that this is high school, so stop comparing the conductors at your school--past and present--to the great masters such as Karajan and Ozawa. Even in the professional world, how many conductors are of that calibre?

Please face the reality here. Like some other forum members have suggested, you could leave the school orchestra if you are so unhappy there. Perhaps you could audition for a better orchestra outside the school. If you are so into conducting, perhaps you should see if you could work as an assistant conductor in a local community orchestra.

[neilthecellist]

Hm. You guys are probably right. The general feeling I'm getting from you guys is that if I'm not able to effect any change on the music program, I might as well leave.

That makes sense.

I probably should, then. Thank you all for your input. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kenm]

Just a few comments on an impossible situation:

1) Any orchestra that can play the Suk Serenade should cope easily with the Elgar "I & A";

2) A conscientious conductor should "know how the music goes" (George Hurst's phrase), by reading the score carefully and either studying with a master conductor or listening to a range of interpretations, or both;

3) Elgar's scores, and in particular the "I & A", are notated in great detail, and the differences (e.g. "molto rit."/"poco rit.) really do matter;

4) The many speed variations, and the number of parts, make the "I & A" a substantial challenge for a conductor, more than the Suk or the Dvorak (but considerably less than the "Rite of Spring"!);

5) A conductor of any orchestra ought to have some understanding of the strings, so as to know the varieties of timbre that are available from them;

6) In professional orchestras, conductors usually rely on the leader or other section principals to advise the other players on technique;

7) In the UK, music degrees (B, M or D) do not necessarily involve tuition in conducting, even as an option;*

8) Much of the technique of conducting can be taught, and there are short courses in conducting at summer schools e.g. Canford SSM

9) If you can't easily attend a course, many aspects of conducting can be learnt from books, e.g. "Orchestral Performance : a Guide for Conductors and Players", by Christopher Adey, which is particularly aimed at amateur and school orchestras.

* I think this is scandalous, as many music graduates go into teaching and may immediately find themselves conducting school orchestras and choirs.

I feel very strongly for neilthecellist's situation, because the "I & A" is such a great work (one of Elgar's top three, IMO, along with the Variations and "Falstaff"), and to be involved in its perversion would plunge me into such depths of depression. In his position, I would certainly leave the orchestra.

[Dulciana]

I feel very strongly for neilthecellist's situation, because the "I & A" is such a great work (one of Elgar's top three, IMO, along with the Variations and "Falstaff"), and to be involved in its perversion would plunge me into such depths of depression. In his position, I would certainly leave the orchestra.

I know very little about conducting beyond a little tuition on dealing with a church choir - and from having been on the receiving end of choir conductors as an accompanist. But I've been reading with interest and also smpathise. If everyone was to simply accept rather than question then nothing would improve in this type of situation. However if you are something of a voice in the wilderness you are likely only to succeed in making yourself unpopular whilst having to continue with the frustration - so I'd agree with kenm.