Which Notes On The Stave Are Which Pitches?, Doing some homework before buying violin! Options

[STRINGMUM]

But it's not the same as having input from a good teacher. Knowing which finger goes where is the easy bit checking hand shape, thumb position, that the left arm is moving when you change strings, that your right elbow isn't drooping, that the bow's straight etc all at the same time is not.
When my second son started violin I did borrow a violin and pizzed along with him to encourage him but last October when I decided to learn to play properly I found a teacher and it's the best thing I could've done. I had no problem reading music, working out rhythms etc and with my teachers guidance I have made better progress than I could've hoped. I can change position happily into 3rd, can do a little vibrato, have learnt different bowings and most importantly for me been able to join the rest of the family when they play chamber music. I wouldn't have done half of it without my teacher.
It's also worth knowing that bad technique not only will eventually slow down your progress and stop you reaching your potential but can take years to rectify. My First son was allowed to develop a bad technique, because he could play well in tune despite it, but when he changed teacher he had to go back to basics and relearn everything.
Please, please if you want to learn well get a teacher.

[AmandaL]

Well, I'm teaching myself, and have been doing fine thus far.

Without wishing to sound impertinent, how do you know you are doing fine if you've not had a violin teacher/professional player watch you play? What 'feels' right to most beginners on the violin, is not actually correct technique. They find a way to do something that makes it comfortable for them (human nature with anything), but because what they are doing is in fact incorrect, it will hinder their progress in the long term.

You said you have found a lot information in books, charity shops and so forth, but interpretation of a picture or written text is subjective to the person reading or looking at it. Much like the correct pronounciation of words in a foreign language. Without some guidance, it's very easy for an inexperienced learner in a new subject to travel along a merry learning path in complete ignorance of the truth.

I understand why some people consider tuition irreplaceable (in some cases, it may be - I'm a linguist, and a tutor, so am very aware of how much scaffolding some people need), but not everyone needs a tutor. I'm teaching myself various other things, including languages that don't use roman script, so am accustomed to the levels of motivation necessary to teach oneself in a more challenging area.

Motivation is not in question here. Indeed I studied for a degree in physics, part-time, which although semi-tutored was very much self-directed learning - and in a subject that most wouldn't even tackle if being spoon-fed the information. It took an incredible amount of tenacity and dedication to stick at it. If you posess the determination to succeed at something, which clearly you do, then surely you owe it to yourself to seek a little guidance, even if only on a very occasional basis.

[smallperson]

Amanda. Hello, and thanks for your response. You don't sound impertinent at all. IF someone told me they were learning a language with no support at all, I'd wonder how. I have a good friend who used to play strings in an orchestra. She visited a couple of weeks after I started to learn, and watched me play, "Twinkle twinkle, little star". I was a bit slow, but apart from noting that she used a sponge to play her violin, she told me I was doing fine. I was expecting to sound like a cat on heat, but was very pleasantly surprised when I managed to produce a pleasant sound within minutes of picking up the bow.

If I'm not sure of a tune, I pick up one of my recorders, and play the tune on that. Then I return to the violin, and work on that technique until it sounds right.

Much like the correct pronounciation of words in a foreign language.

Learners of foreign languages have a much easier time of it these days. Lots of multi media courses and materials, including Sky TV and the internet. A far cry from the days of text books and cassettes if we were lucky. Perhaps I'm lucky, and my lifetime of language learning has given me a good ear. Whatever it is, I know when whatever I'm trying to play sounds terrible, and when it sounds right (or even good). If I play badly, I work out what I'm doing wrong (alter position, more or less pressure, something else?) and remedy it.

One thing I'm wondering right now - does it matter about technique if the performance is not affected? Please note that I'm not being impertinent either, but am genuinely wondering here. I used to be a church bellringer, and know that sometimes people can get bogged down in technique, whilst actual performance would be fine if the ringers were able to just relax and enjoy what they were doing.

Stringmum. Hope I've managed to respond adequately to you in the above, too.

[AmandaL]

One thing I'm wondering right now - does it matter about technique if the performance is not affected? Please note that I'm not being impertinent either, but am genuinely wondering here. I used to be a church bellringer, and know that sometimes people can get bogged down in technique, whilst actual performance would be fine if the ringers were able to just relax and enjoy what they were doing.

Technique becomes important if you want your playing to prgoress beyond a level that would equate to roughly Grade 5. Without it, improvement will literally grind to a halt. This is why Grade 5 is often referred to as the 'glass ceiling' of string playing - pupils either lack the facility to learn the advanced techniques, or lack the tenacity to stick at it for long enough to develop them fully. The learning curve does very much become exponential.

I'm certain bellringing is a lot more difficult than it looks, I've not tried it so I am not running it down at all, but playing the violin is also far more complex than it looks. There are a multitude of bowing techniques on the violin, all of which come into use in standard repertoire. To perform these bowing techniques the bow arm, wrist and hand have to be completely relaxed and supple - something a lot of learners have trouble with, their right hand and wrist being quite rigid. In order to play in high(er) positions on the fingerboard, the left arm and hand have to be in the right place in order to reach the notes with your fingers. The spacing between the notes right up there is also incredibly tiny, so an adaptable hand and a very good ear are essential.

There is no reason to get bogged down in technique, but a lot depends on how far you want to extend your ability. If you are happy playing a few folk, baroque, or simple tunes which take you no higher than 3rd position, then you'll be ok, but if you develop the desire to tackle more complicated repertoire and succeed musically with it, that's when technique is absolutely essential.

[singerpianist]

Please, please try to get some help from a violin teacher.

I really would if I could - I can see from everyone's responses that having a violin teacher is fundamental in playing the instrument...but it's not just the money side of it that is preventing me from having lessons - my mum really really hates the violin and has said that I definitely cannot have lessons. I said that if I did it would make me progress much faster and sound much better, but then she actually said "I hope you find you can't play the violin at all, because then you'll realise what a waste of money and time it is." (that does sound as if she's really unsupportive/etc, but really she is support - it's just not with the violin...she's fine with piano/voice!) But seriously, there's no persuading (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

But! I will be asking my music teacher for some help occasionally, and I 'kind of know' someone in the year above me who is grade 7 I think, and may be able to give me some advice too. And I'm 100% willing to give the online lesson things a go and see how I get on.

I might've just got myself a part time job, and I'll be learning to drive in November - so perhaps this time next year I'll be able to afford violin lessons and will be able to 'sneak out and drive myself' to them!

[AmandaL]

Please, please try to get some help from a violin teacher.

I really would if I could - I can see from everyone's responses that having a violin teacher is fundamental in playing the instrument...but it's not just the money side of it that is preventing me from having lessons - my mum really really hates the violin and has said that I definitely cannot have lessons. I said that if I did it would make me progress much faster and sound much better, but then she actually said "I hope you find you can't play the violin at all, because then you'll realise what a waste of money and time it is." (that does sound as if she's really unsupportive/etc, but really she's not - it's just with the violin...she's fine with piano/voice!) But seriously, there's no persuading (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

But! I will be asking my music teacher for some help occasionally, and I 'kind of know' someone in the year above me who is grade 7 I think, and may be able to give me some advice too. And I'm 100% willing to give the online lesson things a go and see how I get on.

I might've just got myself a part time job, and I'll be learning to drive in November - so perhaps this time next year I'll be able to afford violin lessons and will be able to 'sneak out and drive myself' to them!

Well on the basis of that, go for it! And just try and get as much help (from real people) as you can.

My mother was never the most supportive person towards me either, so I can appreciate your predicament, but for her to say what she has is truly horrific (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) . Do you think your mother has touch of jealousy? Is there something about the violin that may be touching a particularly raw nerve with her? (and not just that she says she doesn't like the sound). I know that my mother is a very jealous person in general - she doesn't want to do something herself, or so she claims, but doesn't like other people doing things either. It's sort of a double-edged sword in that whatever you do, you're wrong.

[singerpianist]

What kind of fiddle are you getting?

I'm getting one from Dawsons...it's a Stentor student I violin. It's only £70 - seeing as I don't have much money and don't know whether or not I'll 'get on' with a violin, I thought it'd be best to begin with a cheaper one, and then if I get along with it well, then I can invest in a more expensive one maybe for my birthday, Christmas or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Please, please try to get some help from a violin teacher.

I really would if I could - I can see from everyone's responses that having a violin teacher is fundamental in playing the instrument...but it's not just the money side of it that is preventing me from having lessons - my mum really really hates the violin and has said that I definitely cannot have lessons. I said that if I did it would make me progress much faster and sound much better, but then she actually said "I hope you find you can't play the violin at all, because then you'll realise what a waste of money and time it is." (that does sound as if she's really unsupportive/etc, but really she's not - it's just with the violin...she's fine with piano/voice!) But seriously, there's no persuading (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

But! I will be asking my music teacher for some help occasionally, and I 'kind of know' someone in the year above me who is grade 7 I think, and may be able to give me some advice too. And I'm 100% willing to give the online lesson things a go and see how I get on.

I might've just got myself a part time job, and I'll be learning to drive in November - so perhaps this time next year I'll be able to afford violin lessons and will be able to 'sneak out and drive myself' to them!

Well on the basis of that, go for it! And just try and get as much help (from real people) as you can.

My mother was never the most supportive person towards me either, so I can appreciate your predicament, but for her to say what she has is truly horrific (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) . Do you think your mother has touch of jealousy? Is there something about the violin that may be touching a particularly raw nerve with her? (and not just that she says she doesn't like the sound). I know that my mother is a very jealous person in general - she doesn't want to do something herself, or so she claims, but doesn't like other people doing things either. It's sort of a double-edged sword in that whatever you do, you're wrong.

Hmm no, she isn't really a jealous sort of person. I'm from an unmusical family, and she just really doesn't like the sound of the violin, and thinks I should just keep my focus on the piano (which I won't neglect, as I absolutely adore playing the piano). And she's apprehensive about me playing the violin because she doesn't like classical music and would hear everything that I would play on it as classical. If that makes sense!! If by chance of a miracle I was able to play the violin well, I don't think I'd be able to persuade her to like the violin, but she'd then probably be able to accept that even if she doesn't like it - I do! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I'm not trying to make her sound at all a bad person, because she's great - just anti-violin!

[elisabeth_rb]

A good video is better than a bad teacher anyway.

Anything's better than a bad teacher, hun!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[all ears]

My mother was very anti-sound - the radio was never on when she was around, and the furthest I got in playing any music I'd bought while living at home was half of one track of an LP (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) . Music practice had to be done behind closed doors, preferably when she wasn't in any nearby room. Luckily I wasn't particularly music-oriented anyway.

I have to assume that she found many sounds actively unpleasant, so maybe your mother has her own reasons for being anti-violin.

That said, do you think that the fact that you're aiming for three Grade 6s and also have GCSE on your plate might have something to do with it? She might feel quite differently when you have those milestones behind you!

Meanwhile, have to agree with StringMum. Even if you WANT to find out how to do things the right way, and WANT to learn, it's hard to get one thing right without getting something else wrong, so try to get as much input from violin-playing friends as possible.

[primrose]

Technique becomes important if you want your playing to progress beyond a level that would equate to roughly Grade 5. Without it, improvement will literally grind to a halt. This is why Grade 5 is often referred to as the 'glass ceiling' of string playing - pupils either lack the facility to learn the advanced techniques, or lack the tenacity to stick at it for long enough to develop them fully.

What sort of advanced techniques do you have in mind, and what sort of facility does one need (given the tenacity)?

If you are happy playing a few folk, baroque, or simple tunes which take you no higher than 3rd position, then you'll be ok, but if you develop the desire to tackle more complicated repertoire and succeed musically with it, that's when technique is absolutely essential.

I wonder whether you might be understating your case a bit here. Personally I'd be content to feel that after a couple more years I'd be able to play in the less challenging kind of amateur orchestra (the kind that only asks for Grade 5, if that), and I imagine a lot of adult learners would feel the same. Do you think it's possible to get even this far without tuition? I don't think I could. I'm not even sure I can do it with tuition.


Laura, does your mum like any kind of music? You can play jazz on the violin, or rock, or folk. And where would "easy listening" be without the cascading strings?

Maybe your mum has had experience of what a beginner violinist sounds like? - which is of course what you will sound like, for a while. But you'd think that, if she isn't going to stop you learning the violin at all, she would want you to get beyond the beginner stage as soon as possible!

[Violin Hero]

Well if you were anywhere near London, I could help you being a grade 7 level player.

If parents are saying no to lessons tehre is not a lot you cna do I am afraid. Unless you get a music scholarship at school and get free lesons of course!

make sure you get a practice mute when playing at home. At leat your mum won't have to listen to you!

[smallperson]

To perform these bowing techniques the bow arm, wrist and hand have to be completely relaxed and supple - something a lot of learners have trouble with, their right hand and wrist being quite rigid.

Thanks for this, and your other comments, Amanda. My arm, wrists and hand have been completely relaxed, just because I can't tense them, or they'd hurt, and within a minute or two, it would be impossible to continue.

As for bellringing, well, you control a usually quite heavy bell by pulling on a rope, which is strung around a wheel. It can be an interesting experience for a person to ring a bell weighing a ton or so (you'd have to start pulling the rope to make the clapper sound a few seconds before you needed it, so something called ropesight is rather useful). There are lots of websites about bellringing and campanology though, so you could always have an interesting few minutes checking some of them out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

There must be something in the water with parents. I tried to play for my parents at Christmas (I was quite capable, and picked a tune I could play well). My mother just started to talk very loudly over my playing, and then picked up her phone and started to check her messages - even more loudly. I put my violin down, and told her how incredibly rude she was being. Her excuse was that she didn't like loud music. Funny how she does if it's her beloved Elvis Presley. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[singerpianist]

Technique becomes important if you want your playing to progress beyond a level that would equate to roughly Grade 5. Without it, improvement will literally grind to a halt. This is why Grade 5 is often referred to as the 'glass ceiling' of string playing - pupils either lack the facility to learn the advanced techniques, or lack the tenacity to stick at it for long enough to develop them fully.

What sort of advanced techniques do you have in mind, and what sort of facility does one need (given the tenacity)?

If you are happy playing a few folk, baroque, or simple tunes which take you no higher than 3rd position, then you'll be ok, but if you develop the desire to tackle more complicated repertoire and succeed musically with it, that's when technique is absolutely essential.

I wonder whether you might be understating your case a bit here. Personally I'd be content to feel that after a couple more years I'd be able to play in the less challenging kind of amateur orchestra (the kind that only asks for Grade 5, if that), and I imagine a lot of adult learners would feel the same. Do you think it's possible to get even this far without tuition? I don't think I could. I'm not even sure I can do it with tuition.


Laura, does your mum like any kind of music? You can play jazz on the violin, or rock, or folk. And where would "easy listening" be without the cascading strings?

Maybe your mum has had experience of what a beginner violinist sounds like? - which is of course what you will sound like, for a while. But you'd think that, if she isn't going to stop you learning the violin at all, she would want you to get beyond the beginner stage as soon as possible!

Well my mum likes dance music and R&B!! She often jokes we've kind of 'swapped' seeing as I like classical!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) I think she just would hear the violin sound and think 'classical' - even if I was playing something in a different style!

That said, do you think that the fact that you're aiming for three Grade 6s and also have GCSE on your plate might have something to do with it? She might feel quite differently when you have those milestones behind you!

Yes that probably does have something to do with it, although I've chosen to wait until this weekend to buy my violin so that my GCSE's are all over and done with. And my singing exam is in July, so that'll soon be out of the way too - and as I'm off school for the rest of this term (as I've finished my exams) I'll have lots of time to practise everything! But I understand your point - she did also say that this was one of the reasons, and said why couldn't I wait until I'm older to learn, but then I said one of the reasons for me learning was also so that I could play in an orchestra at Univeristy, which would also help with my general musical studies...

[primrose]

I said one of the reasons for me learning was also so that I could play in an orchestra at Univeristy, which would also help with my general musical studies...

Not to mention being a great way to make new friends, which is after all what university is primarily about. I vividly remember (40 years on!) being told by a fellow student that being able to play the violin gave him a ready-made social circle wherever he might go. I was green with envy.

[all ears]

Probably your mother was concerned that you were even THINKING about violin rather than study, let alone actually playing it.....Total Mind Control is after all what we aim for!

Enjoy your summer, and no doubt singing means that you have a good sense of pitch, always an advantage with violin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) .