Composite Clarinets Options

[tony_clarinet]

Furthering my investigations into upgrading my clarinet, I was wondering what others thought about wood composite material. I was thinking specifically of Hanson who make their intermediate and professional ranges in the option of their BTR material (AKA reinforced grenadilla or ECO wood) a blend of grenadilla and ebonite. I'm also aware Buffet do something similar with their Greenline (ebony and carbon fibre bonded with epoxy resin) range of R13s. This implies these are a far cry from plastic but have the advantage of not cracking etc as a result of atmospheric conditions and greater consistency in manufacture. I would assume the design between the composite and solid wood equivalent is identical and therefore that the mechanical aspect of playing (fingering, blowing resistance etc) would also be the same but that the tone that may be slightly different due to the different resonant characteristics of the material. Does anyone have any experience of these compared to their all wood equivalent.

[skylark]

There's an interesting article about "the grenadilla myth" on this web site. It's written by Tom Ridenour who I gather is a respected name in clarinets - I *think* I remember Alastair Hanson saying that he used to work with Tom Ridenour and that Tom used to be with Boosey & Hawkes. The article doesn't specifically mention composites, although I remember having a conversation with Alastair Hanson about it and he agreed with TR that the tone is more to do with the manufacture/design rather than the material. I'm sure if you give AH a ring he would be happy to talk to you about it - he's very interesting on the subject of clarinets! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) If you can get hold of him, that is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[CJB]

I'm not going to get drawn into the 'does the material make a difference' debate - I don't have time as I can wax lyrical for many hours, but don't know the answer!

The greenline/composite instruments are just another one of the many options out there.

I've tried the greenline R13 and RC instruments - both seemed heavier than the grenadilla option. There was about the same amount of variability from instrument to instrument as in the greanadilla ones as well (I suspect the sharpness of the tooling has an effect - I believe the composite material is harder to work than the grenadilla but I can't provide any references)

The lack of cracking is their main benefit, particularly if you are in an area which suffers extremes of temperature - the only time I think I'd have benefitted is playing Christmas carols outside - but my old plastic Regent is perfectly adequate.

I don't know if the tenons have been strengthened, but a few years ago I did hear of a few cases of the instrument snapping at the tenon when dropped (I know moral of story don't drop the clarinet!)

Hope this is of some help.

[stevensfo]

although I remember having a conversation with Alastair Hanson about it and he agreed that the tone is more to do with the manufacture/design rather than the material.

Yes, this is a subject that has been done to death on other forums. I read the articles by Tom Ridenour years ago and they were impressive. I especially liked the way he tested clarinets on an audience instead of relying on the player's opinion as everyone does.

Many times in the past I've said that what we need is a proper double blind test where a clarinetist is asked to play the same music blindfolded, in front of an audience, with a number of different clarinets (same MP/barrel!).

Re. the greenline clarinets, I always believed they were for people who insisted on wooden clarinets, but lived in those US States where the humidity changed the most and so had more cracks.

Steve

[pushpull]

Many times in the past I've said that what we need is a proper double blind test where a clarinetist is asked to play the same music blindfolded, in front of an audience, with a number of different clarinets (same MP/barrel!).

I can't speak for clarinets, but I did come across a report of just this kind of test being carried out on oboes (PLASTIC, not Greenline, v. wood). I know it's on line somewhere but I can't find it just now. The test was carried out in front of non-musicians and musicians (profs and college students). The listeners were asked to say whether an oboe was wood or plastic. The upshot was, they couldn't.

Re. the greenline clarinets, I always believed they were for people who insisted on wooden clarinets, but lived in those US States where the humidity changed the most and so had more cracks.

Indeed and for the same reason a number of manufacturers produce plastic top joints for otherwise wooden oboes.

Buffet's Greenline oboe is played by several top players, probably most famously by Albrecht Mayer of the BPO - so they ain't going to be rubbish. I saw (heard) one at a masterclass recently and I wouldn't have been able to say "oh that's not wooden" if I didn't know.

Another couple of examples - Fox polypropylene bassoons are highly repected and recorder maker Hans Coolsma makes some top end models from machined polyester.

EDIT - I found the article. Not quite as I recall but rather more harsh than I thought. Subjects were played first a wooden oboe then had to determine whether the following one was wood or plastic.
http://www.idrs.org/Publications/Journal/J.../JNL13Diam.html

[stevensfo]

I can't speak for clarinets, but I did come across a report of just this kind of test being carried out on oboes (PLASTIC, not Greenline, v. wood). I know it's on line somewhere but I can't find it just now. The test was carried out in front of non-musicians and musicians (profs and college students). The listeners were asked to say whether an oboe was wood or plastic. The upshot was, they couldn't.

Please give the link if you ever find it. It's an interesting topic.

The only oboe test I know is this one:

http://www.norapost.com/pintail.html

Steve

[pushpull]

I can't speak for clarinets, but I did come across a report of just this kind of test being carried out on oboes (PLASTIC, not Greenline, v. wood). I know it's on line somewhere but I can't find it just now. The test was carried out in front of non-musicians and musicians (profs and college students). The listeners were asked to say whether an oboe was wood or plastic. The upshot was, they couldn't.

Please give the link if you ever find it. It's an interesting topic.

The only oboe test I know is this one:

http://www.norapost.com/pintail.html

Steve

I've added the link to my post Steve. I recall reading the one you mention. It made me giggle just a bit that all those Loree obsessed Americans should mark it so low. A bit of a dearth of Howarths too I see.

Oh another thing just popped into my mind. I read that it's the bell that makes all the difference. Apparently putting someone else's bell on your oboe will make it sound like theirs. I don't know if that applies to clarts too. It makes me think that perhaps you could make the main barrel out of old drainpipes and put a nice bell on it. It also brings to mind a classical guitar made by the great Torres with papier mache back and sides (to demonstrate that it is actually the front that is important).

[stevensfo]

I read that it's the bell that makes all the difference. Apparently putting someone else's bell on your oboe will make it sound like theirs.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Thanks for that. I hadn't heard this one before.

So all that work on reeds, expensive keywork and intricately cut tone holes are for nothing! I'm sure Loree and Rigoutat will be pleased to hear that.

Seriously though, this is a joke. The sound emanates mainly from the tone holes.

If all the air came out only via the bell, you'd be playing Mozarts oboe concerto with only one note!

Wait a minute! Good idea! Wasn't there a thread about minimalist music somewhere....?

It makes me think that perhaps you could make the main barrel out of old drainpipes and put a nice bell on it.

Look, just leave my clarinet alone will you?

Besides, it's a Buffet drainpipe! The fact that leaves and muddy water occasionally drop out of it is just coincidence!


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Steve