Tuning With Harmonics Options

[river]

when i first started learning fiddle, i learnt to tune by playing two adjacent strings, and listening for the fifth. i found this rather difficult at first, so i usually use an electronic tuner. but now my teacher showed me another way of tuning, using harmonics.

it works like this: first, you play the harmonic on (say) the G string, which is about 1/3rd of the way up the string. then play the harmonic on the D string which is about 1/2 way up. these are the same note, so you can then tune much like you would do on a fretted instrument. repeat this for each string.

for me, this is much easier than tuning in fifths, but i've never seen anyone else tune like this, and none of the 'how to tune a violin' guides i've seen mention it.

does anyone else use this method - or is there a reason everyone seems to tune using fifths?

[hello_cello]

i would have thought that tuning in 5ths is easier as you can bow the strings, whilst using the fine tuners, which i should think is a great deal harder when tuning in harmonics, and from a cellists point of view, we cant play those harmonics with one hand.

[piano*cello*sax*boy]

I tune in the same way, as i find it alot of easier and alot quicker. I sometimes try and tune by bowing the open strings together and then check it with the harmonics to see if i've got it right. But the harmonics way is alot easier. However I can't reach the fine tuners while bowing so it doesn't make alot of difference in that sense.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kenm]

[...]it works like this: first, you play the harmonic on (say) the G string, which is about 1/3rd of the way up the string. then play the harmonic on the D string which is about 1/2 way up. these are the same note, so you can then tune much like you would do on a fretted instrument. repeat this for each string.

This is, in principle (making allowance for tuning in fourths*), how I tune to the orchestral A on the bass. At home, or if I know the conductor won't give me enough time to do it this way, I use a tuner.

* In detail: I damp at the fourth on the lower string and at the fifth on the upper one. I can do this on both strings at the same time, so I can alternate the strings quickly with the bow.

[hello_cello]

were any of you also taught to tune the A string with an A minor chord? i was : (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[kenm]

were any of you also taught to tune the A string with an A minor chord? i was : (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Do you mean comparing it with your C string?

[viola-mad]

Even after 25 years of playing I find tuning in 5ths a constant challenge. So yes, I tune with harmonics, but I never let anybody catch me doing it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) This is because I assume it would be frowned upon (though I haven't tested this theory). The tuning of harmonics against open strings is dubious, but I'm not sure whether the same applies when tuning harmonics against other harmonics. It seems to work for me so I'll stick with it.

[piano*cello*sax*boy]

Ive never been taught to tune an A with an A minor chord, but have been told 2 do it with a D minor chord. not that i ever use that method.

[Violinia]

It really isn't difficult to tune in fifths if you're prepared to give it time and really listen. First get your A right by using a tuning fork or an A minor chord on a keyboard or piano. Then play A and D together with your bow, listening very hard for a vibration between the two notes. If the D is way out of tune with the A you'll hear a wide, slow vibration; if it's pretty close to being correct you'll hear a faster vibration. The aim is to eliminate the vibration altogether, which is what'll happen when the two notes are an exact perfect fifth apart. The perfect fifth is an interval fixed in nature - this is why there is no vibration when the interval is true. I think it would be terribly sad if violinists were to abandon this way of tuning, because to be able to play the violin in tune at all we do need to be able to hear these subtle vibrations.

I'm horribly afaid that too many years of listening to and playing equal-tempered pianos and keyboards is actually ruining our ability to hear these perfect intervals. If we go the other way and give up on them altogether we'll lose our ability to hear these natural intervals and with it we'll lose the ability to play fretless stringed instruments in tune altogether.

To re-iterate - all we need to do is slow down and listen hard for those vibrations. They're there, and discernable to anybody and everybody - you just need the patience to listen out for them. The more you listen out for them the more you'll develop your musical sensitivity and aural awareness, an ability that all musicians should be only too happy to cultivate and nurture.

[louby]

I hate tuning my violin in front of my teacher, I dont know why but I feel like I just cant get it right as when I think its in tune, Im told its sharp or flat so my teacher has told me if Im not confident with it to check afterwards with harmonics.

[kenm]

The perfect fifth is an interval fixed in nature - this is why there is no vibration when the interval is true.

This is almost universally believed by musicians, but experimental acousticians, starting with Helmholtz in about 1852, have demonstrated that it is not true on all instruments. For a brief description of this work, with references to some of its documentation, see my essay on Schenker, particularly chapters 2 and 3.

The most familiar example of consonance resulting from coincidence of the frequencies of partials, rather than from frequencies in small integer ratios, is the sharpness of the high register and the flatness of the low register of a well-tuned piano, when every octave is adjusted to eliminate beats. This is discussed in chapter 4 of the essay.

I would suggest, as a replacement for your sentence: "The frequency ratio of the correctly tuned perfect fifth on bowed strings, blown wind and the human voice is indistinguishable from 3/2; on struck instruments it may differ widely from this value."

[Suepea]

It really isn't difficult to tune in fifths if you're prepared to give it time and really listen. First get your A right by using a tuning fork or an A minor chord on a keyboard or piano. Then play A and D together with your bow, listening very hard for a vibration between the two notes. If the D is way out of tune with the A you'll hear a wide, slow vibration; if it's pretty close to being correct you'll hear a faster vibration. The aim is to eliminate the vibration altogether, which is what'll happen when the two notes are an exact perfect fifth apart. The perfect fifth is an interval fixed in nature - this is why there is no vibration when the interval is true. I think it would be terribly sad if violinists were to abandon this way of tuning, because to be able to play the violin in tune at all we do need to be able to hear these subtle vibrations.

I'm horribly afaid that too many years of listening to and playing equal-tempered pianos and keyboards is actually ruining our ability to hear these perfect intervals. If we go the other way and give up on them altogether we'll lose our ability to hear these natural intervals and with it we'll lose the ability to play fretless stringed instruments in tune altogether.

To re-iterate - all we need to do is slow down and listen hard for those vibrations. They're there, and discernable to anybody and everybody - you just need the patience to listen out for them. The more you listen out for them the more you'll develop your musical sensitivity and aural awareness, an ability that all musicians should be only too happy to cultivate and nurture.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Thank you for that explanation, Violinia. I now know what I am supposed to listen for when playing the open strings together on my cello - I have relied on pitching the notes mentally when doing it, but suspected this wasn't quite right. I'm off to listen to my vibrations now!

As regards tuning on harmonics, aren't harmonics slightly flat, or have I been mis-informed?

[piano*cello*sax*boy]

I just went and tried the open strings method and listening for the vibrations and it actually worked although it was the slower approach and harmonics work alot quicker but i think i will use it more often as its quite fun.
Thanks for the advice Violinia

[fayewolf]

when i first started learning fiddle, i learnt to tune by playing two adjacent strings, and listening for the fifth. i found this rather difficult at first, so i usually use an electronic tuner. but now my teacher showed me another way of tuning, using harmonics.

it works like this: first, you play the harmonic on (say) the G string, which is about 1/3rd of the way up the string. then play the harmonic on the D string which is about 1/2 way up. these are the same note, so you can then tune much like you would do on a fretted instrument. repeat this for each string.

for me, this is much easier than tuning in fifths, but i've never seen anyone else tune like this, and none of the 'how to tune a violin' guides i've seen mention it.

does anyone else use this method - or is there a reason everyone seems to tune using fifths?

Can you explain the harmonic method in more detail? (beginner here). I find tuning in 5ths very difficult too.

I only know how to do the harmonic where you divide the string in half (e.g. third finger on E string A played harmonic is the high high E), what do you mean by 1/3rd on G string and 1/2 on D string?

[river]

Can you explain the harmonic method in more detail? (beginner here).

with the disclaimer that i'm no more than a beginner myself, so you should take this with a large grain of salt... finger the lower string (G) like this, and the higher string (D) like this. according to my tuner, these are both a slightly sharp D. you can finger them both at once like this (apologies for the poor image quality - photographing your hand with a phone camera while holding a fiddle is harder than you might think ;-)

i'd suggest listening to the more experienced people here who recommend learning to tune in fifths - i'll probably have another look at that myself. (violinia, thanks for the explanation - i think that's the best description of how to tune in fifths i've found yet...)

rosfrog - i'm curious to know more about why an electronic tuner shouldn't be used. is there a difference between the frequency the tuner looks for and the 'real' note that's actually played on the fiddle?