Structure? Options

[Jungfrauenregalbass]

Hello
Whats the difference between form and structure anyone?

Thanks

Ben again.

[kenm]

I think of them as much the same, as the means you use to balance unity and variety. They seem to me to be names for different aspects of the same function. For example, if you asked, "What is the form of the first movement of Brahms 2?", I would probably answer, "Sonata form", but if you asked me about its structure, I would describe the three note fragment (D C# D at the beginning) that occurs frequently throughout the movement (and the other three also), in numerous versions, and the more obvious first subject, (f#- a A- d e f# e d- A), in which notes 5, 6 and 7 are a tonal inversion of the fragment, and which also returns in different versions at intervals through this movement.

Other forms are "binary", "ternary", "rondo", "theme and variations", "minuet and trio" and "scherzo and trio". The last two are pretty much the same in the large, the second having grown out of the first; nominally they differ in tempo, but Beethoven labelled the scherzo of his first symphony "Menuetto" and some of Haydn's minuets are taken pretty fast nowadays. Another difference is that a scherzo can be in simple time (e.g. Brahms 4); "scherzo" means "joke", so there is no need for it to conform to a dance rhythm.

[Jungfrauenregalbass]

I think of them as much the same, as the means you use to balance unity and variety. They seem to me to be names for different aspects of the same function. For example, if you asked, "What is the form of the first movement of Brahms 2?", I would probably answer, "Sonata form", but if you asked me about its structure, I would describe the three note fragment (D C# D at the beginning) that occurs frequently throughout the movement (and the other three also), in numerous versions, and the more obvious first subject, (f#- a A- d e f# e d- A), in which notes 5, 6 and 7 are a tonal inversion of the fragment, and which also returns in different versions at intervals through this movement.

Other forms are "binary", "ternary", "rondo", "theme and variations", "minuet and trio" and "scherzo and trio". The last two are pretty much the same in the large, the second having grown out of the first; nominally they differ in tempo, but Beethoven labelled the scherzo of his first symphony "Menuetto" and some of Haydn's minuets are taken pretty fast nowadays. Another difference is that a scherzo can be in simple time (e.g. Brahms 4); "scherzo" means "joke", so there is no need for it to conform to a dance rhythm.

Ok thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
methinks I didnt explain the question very well, I know what form is but not structure.
is it then like where the matirial comes, for example Beethovens 5th is all based on the 4 note motif at the start?

am I making any sence (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[organ_dummy]

Form has to do with the ways in which thematic materials are organized.

Structure is a rather vague term. On a piece of music, theorists can discuss the melodic structure, rhythmic structure, formal structure, and harmonic and voice-leading structure.

[kenm]

methinks I didnt explain the question very well, I know what form is but not structure. is it then like where the matirial comes, for example Beethovens 5th is all based on the 4 note motif at the start?

That's what I think of, but I presume Organ Dummy would call that formal structure. I recognise harmonic structure, but consider its importance overrated by the Schenkerian school of analysis: Schenker's views on "correct" harmonic structure result in him leaving Debussy, Stravinsky, Schoenberg and all their successors out of the category of "great composers". The analysis lectures I attended made no mention of melodic, rhythmic or voice-leading structures, though we did, of course, study voice leading in Renaissance and Baroque counterpoint. I would be interested to read Organ Dummy's definitions of them.

[PianoDoodler]

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