The Fiddle Thread, For all things traditional Options

[rosfrog]

So, it seems we've been getting a bit more interest in the Traditional Irish, Scots, Welsh, American, British fiddle etc, and as there are a few of us on the board that specialise in playing these styles, I thought it might be a good idea to start a threat about fiddling where we could post information on the styles and techniques used in our respective fiddling traditions, post links to great performances online, share tunes in ABC format and perhaps violinists in other styles who are interested in playing some fiddle too could get advice from the fiddlers on the board as to how to go about it. Maybe we could also post some learning videos or clips of tunes in our respective styles, breaking down the various steps so that others could learn it? I'd be interested in learning some English, American and Welsh stuff, that's for certain, if anyone fancies teaching it!

Anyone interested?

I'll get the ball rolling with my number one piece of advice for aspiring fiddlers - avoid sheet music like the plague when learning traditional tunes - it will only teach you a standardised version of the melody with no rhythmic or stylistic indications. Much better to listen to the version of the tune played at your local session (or on your favorite CD if you don't have a session) and learn that - you'll find it will differ considerably from what you'd see on the page. Learning this way will make you more musical when playing the tunes, it will stop you from playing the same thing three times through, and will give you the skills necessary to (eventually) pick up a tune on the fly in a session and join in.

Anyone else ?

Allan (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[river]

yay!

well, i mostly play English, so by association i also play a lot of Morris tunes--as many English tunes are also Morris standards. i don't play for a Morris side, although i think it's something that'd be a lot of fun.

as far as sheet music goes--i still learn most tunes from the dots, but my teacher usually plays it a little differently, so we use that as an opportunity to discuss various ornamentations, variations etc. that work with a particular tune. the first thing i do with a new tune is learn to play it without the dots, so i can play around with it without having to look back at the dots all the time. i think a good way to avoid getting stuck in one version of a tune is to listen to as many versions as possible--either recordings, or live shows, or, once you know it well enough, starting a tune at a session and listening to how other people are playing it.

speaking of sessions, my advice would be: find a local session that plays the music you're interesting in, and go there. you don't even have to play anything; just listening is a great way to learn how the music's meant to sound. if you hear a tune you like, ask what it is; that way you can build up a bit of local knowledge (even within the same style, there are usually standard tunes or sets at one session that you might not hear at another).

[Gorf]

Hello

This is the type of music that got me into playing the fiddle. Still getting the basics, but I am right behind you.

[river]

hi Sandy! don't worry--not only do i remember what it was like as a beginner, i am in fact still a beginner myself, so i can relate ;-)

well, to start, here's a nice English tune i've been playing this week:

X:1
T:Old Tom of Oxford
K:Dmaj
M:4/4
L:1/4
|: A B/c/ d A | G F E F/E/ | D F/G/ A d | c d e c/B/ |
A B/c/ d A | G F E (3A/B/c/ | d A G F | E2 D2 :|
|: F A F A | F A d/c/B/A/ | G B G B | G B d/c/B/A/ |
F A F G | A B/c/ d (3A/B/c/ | d A G F | E2 D2 :|

this is a good tune to play around with--i like to play the quavers slighted dotted, almost like a jig, and the B part almost cries out for a bit of double stopping.

[rosfrog]

Great stuff!

Sandy - you'll have such fun with this style of music - I still go to different countries on holiday, find a session, take my fiddle and end up having a night out with a load of people I've never met before - trad music is SUCH a great passport!

River - excellent advice about the sessions - listening is absolutely key in this approach - some sessions will even let listeners record the tunes if they explain it's for learning purposes.

I'm off to learn your tune and I'll post one later.

Allan

[lottie]

X:1
T:Old Tom of Oxford
K:Dmaj
M:4/4
L:1/4
|: A B/c/ d A | G F E F/E/ | D F/G/ A d | c d e c/B/ |
A B/c/ d A | G F E (3A/B/c/ | d A G F | E2 D2 :|
|: F A F A | F A d/c/B/A/ | G B G B | G B d/c/B/A/ |
F A F G | A B/c/ d (3A/B/c/ | d A G F | E2 D2 :|
[/font]
this is a good tune to play around with--i like to play the quavers slighted dotted, almost like a jig, and the B part almost cries out for a bit of double stopping.

Oh help, am I being a bit thick? How do you read that? (no dots (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) )

[river]

Oh help, am I being a bit thick? How do you read that? (no dots (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) )

haha - well - some people can play from that, but most people (including me) convert it into dots first. if you go here, and copy+paste the text into the box (starting from X:), it'll convert it for you. (use the PDF version, it's much better quality!)

don't bother with the MIDI version though; if i'd written this using quavers instead of crotchets, it might be okay, but as it is it's far too slow.

this format is called ABC, and it's designed for sharing tunes (mainly traditional ones) via the Internet. since it's text, you can post it anywhere (like a forum, or email), and everyone can read it without needing a special program. it's also really easy to write once you get the hang of it; if you put "ABC tutorial" into Google, there's several good resources.

[sarah123]

*sticks her head round the door*

(very) beginner fiddler here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Rosfrog, I was wondering... you say to avoid sheet music like the plague, yet ABC format is ok? Surely the end result of the two is much the same? They both give just the basic notes and rhythm and both miss out the stylisations and ornamentations.

This is my favourite tune at the moment:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/sheetmusic...epetticoat1.gif

[rosfrog]

It's called ABC, Lottie and no, you're not being thick! It's only really used in trad circles but is becoming more popular as a way to quickly note down tunes and share them. Real trad fiddlers tend not to use dots at all - simply because accurate versions of the tunes don't really exist in dot format and ABC even gives you good ways to note down traditional ornamentation.

It's quite simple to read. I've copied and pasted the original tune and given you some pointers :

X:1 (this is the number of the tune in the 'collection' - it's irrelevant here, but river is being consciencious and using good ABC technique as, if we were using an ABC decoder on a computer, this line would let the computer know that an ABC tune follows)
T:Old Tom of Oxford (T tells us that this is the title - you can leave this line blank, but for good form don't leave it out or the computer - in the case of an ABC decoder - would have problems reading the tune)
K:Dmaj (This is the key signature and - really if we're being pernickety - should come last in the header, right before the tune starts)
M:4/4 (The time signature)
L:1/4 (The default length of any note in the piece - here we are told that the default length, unless otherwise stated, is a crotchet - if it had been a quaver, it would have said 1/8).
|: A B/c/ d A | G F E F/E/ | D F/G/ A d | c d e c/B/ |
A B/c/ d A | G F E (3A/B/c/ | d A G F | E2 D2 :|
|: F A F A | F A d/c/B/A/ | G B G B | G B d/c/B/A/ |
F A F G | A B/c/ d (3A/B/c/ | d A G F | E2 D2 :|

In this bit, A is your open A string, D is your open D string but d is the third finger on the A string. Your violin's notes would be written like this in ABC, starting from the lowest and staying in first position

G, A, B, C D E F G A B c d e f g' a' b'

The slashes tell you that the notes that they follow are half the default value - if we wanted to make them twice the default, we would put a 2 after. The Brackets tell you that some kind of triplet will follow, we see the three so we know it's a standard triplet.

So the first bar reads : Crotchet on open A string, Quaver on B on the A string, Quaver on C sharp on the A string, Crotchet on d on the A string, Crotchet on open A.

You can get programmes to decode it (Barfly is popular) or you can learn to read it - it doesn't take long and makes life very easy when you need to jot down a tune quickly.

There are loads of other interesting things - ways to note rhythm and ornmenation accurately (or as near as darn it) for traditional purposes, additional fields for the header etc - but rather than try to cover it all, here's a link to a page on ABC http://abcnotation.org.uk/ it's very good indeed!

Allan

[lottie]

here, and copy+paste the text into the box (starting from X:), it'll convert it for you. (use the PDF version, it's much better quality!)

That link didn't recognise the cut and paste I tried.. pity. I think I get the drift but it's horribly complicated to my tiny brain (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) I'll sit down and try and work it out.

I started out wanting to learn 'fiddle' tunes but my teacher seems to have gone down the classical route. It's a great pity because she's an amazing fiddle player herself and a great teacher. She sometimes gives me a sheet of fiddle music but doesn't explain the ornaments or anything. She's probably given up on me because of my shockingly bad memory (honestly nothing sticks and I've really tried) so I'd be no use as 'sessions' or any kind of fiddle-playing set up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) I'm too dependent on the black stuff.

[sarah123]

here, and copy+paste the text into the box (starting from X:), it'll convert it for you. (use the PDF version, it's much better quality!)

That link didn't recognise the cut and paste I tried.. pity. I think I get the drift but it's horribly complicated to my tiny brain (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) I'll sit down and try and work it out.

Did you paste the whole thing? You have to get all the bits at the top as well as the notey bit.

[rosfrog]

*sticks her head round the door*

(very) beginner fiddler here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Rosfrog, I was wondering... you say to avoid sheet music like the plague, yet ABC format is ok? Surely the end result of the two is much the same? They both give just the basic notes and rhythm and both miss out the stylisations and ornamentations.

This is my favourite tune at the moment:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/sheetmusic...epetticoat1.gif

Hi Sarah - great tune that!

I do avoid it like the plague, you're right - and ABC I'd avoid generally too. What we have to remember is that learning tunes from notation is generally a bad way forward, whether it be ABC or classical notation. Whilst ABC is generally better because of the facilites for notating traditional rhythm and ornamentation - I'd still tell people - at least for the first few years - to avoid any kind of notation system and listen to the tunes played by real people, and learn them by ear. That way you pick up the right feel, rhythm, swing, ornamentation, variations etc right from the start.

Once you're advanced enough, you can play directly from a score or ABC and the style and ornamentation will just add themselves as you go, without you having to think about it.

ABC, however, is a great tool for sharing tunes with other experienced players via internet, on the back of a beermat or just so you don't forget the tune (I'm approaching somewhere near 2000 tunes memorised, so I've made a catalogue of the first bar of each in ABC format that I have on my iPhone and if I'm in a session and want to play a particular tune but can't find the starting bar in my head, I can just have a quick look at that, then I'm off!)

So I'd say - use your ears until you can comfortably sing a jig, reel, hornpipe, barndance, polka etc and vary and ornament it without your instrument, then use your instrument to learn it and once you've got your style down, you can by all means learn the odd tune from a score or ABC if there is no other way (i.e. if you have no access to a good recording by a top player) - as your style will be solid and add itself onto what you play and you will be able to vary the melody spontaneously without difficulty.

Hope that helps!

[rosfrog]

Right, here we go here's my offering for the day, a gorgeous jig in Gminor - sounds beautiful, especially if you play it after a jig in Gmajor.

X: 1
T: Crabs In The Skillet
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
R: jig
K: Gmin
|:DGG ABc|cdB ~c3|Add cBA|dcB AGF|
D2 G ABc|cdB ~c3|cAc fed|1cAF G2 F:|2cAF GBd||
|:~g3 ~g3|fag fed|cde fed|cde fed|
[BD]gg gag|(3fga g fed|cde fed|1cAF GBd:|2cAF GDB,||
|:G,B,D GBd|~c3 dcA|~B3 Adc|AGF DCB,|
G,B,D GBd|~c3 dcA|~B3 Adc|1AGF G2 G,:|AGF G2 D||

A couple of pointers for Irish music beginners :

A jig is a traditional dance, counted in 2, subdivided into three - it doesn't, however, sound like a classical gigue at all. You need a slight stress on the first beat of each bar, then you'll need to give a lift to the third quaver of each group of three, apart from when you really want to accentuate the first beat again, in which case the third quaver of the last group will be linked into the first quaver of the next bar with a down bow that will start slowly and suddenly speed up as we change bar - this kind of cross bar bowing is what gives the tune its lift.

Play it first in separate bows, long short short, long short short - then try short short LONG, short short LONG, then a mixture of the two - then try somethink like Long short short, Long for 3, Long short short, Long short LONG (crossing bar line) etc - Irish bowing is insane when you start as it appears to make no sense, but watch a lot of the great fiddlers on youtube and you get the idea!

If I have the time I might try to post a version on youtube.

Have fune !

Allan
(oh, and remember that Irish music uses natural minor scales, so unless otherwise stated the F's are going to be natural)

Edit : ARG! I forgot to mention that the tilde sign indicates an ornament - not any particular kind of ornament, but here a roll would be most appropriate. A roll is similar to a classical turn, only we only want to hear the main note three times, with the finger just interrupting the string vibration for the other notes - it sounds crunchy and percussive when you get it right - think of that first g with the tilde in the second part - what we play is gfgag - but what we want to hear is g()g()g with the first g being a bit longer and the brackets indicating a hiatus in the sound caused by the finger flicking the string to break its vibration pattern.

[sarah123]

I'd still tell people - at least for the first few years - to avoid any kind of notation system and listen to the tunes played by real people, and learn them by ear. That way you pick up the right feel, rhythm, swing, ornamentation, variations etc right from the start.

I'd find it frustrating if I didn't have a copy of the music as I have a habit of getting home from a lesson and already I've forgotten most of the tune I just learned. For the first couple of weeks I didn't realise you can easily get most fiddle tunes on the internet, so i was stuck not being able to practice at all.

[rosfrog]

I'd still tell people - at least for the first few years - to avoid any kind of notation system and listen to the tunes played by real people, and learn them by ear. That way you pick up the right feel, rhythm, swing, ornamentation, variations etc right from the start.

I'd find it frustrating if I didn't have a copy of the music as I have a habit of getting home from a lesson and already I've forgotten most of the tune I just learned. For the first couple of weeks I didn't realise you can easily get most fiddle tunes on the internet, so i was stuck not being able to practice at all.

Most people coming from classical music do find it frustrating at first, but you really do need to let go of the scores - most top irish and scots musicians agree that a score should only be used by a very advanced player who is already comfortable with the idiom - if you're just starting out, the score may seem like it's helping you but you ultimately end up stuck in a version of the tune - even if it's one with variations and ornaments etc - it will ultimately hamper your ability to pull new variations and ornamentations out of the hat on the spur of the moment, and to vary your style to fit in with the people you're playing with.

I totally understand how it feels though - I was convinced that I would never be able to remember them without the scores and it was hard for the first few months, but now I find it so easy that in the midst of a session, I can usually play a tune I've never heard before by the second time through and am quite solid by the third.

Give it a go - go on, go on, you know you want to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)