How Well Do You Know Your Scales?, (How many different ways can you play them) Options

[Roseau]

A thread inspired by the other two scales threads...

I am one of those people who like scales and have no problem playing them from memory, or so I thought...

However, recently my oboe teacher suggested that once you know the notes, just playing a scale up and down is not the most useful thing to do with them. He already had me playing them over the whole range of the instrument (not from tonic to tonic) and with some variety of articulation (legato, tongued, staccato, two tongued, two detached and vice versa) and what he called wave scales (C up to D, down to E, up to F etc). He now wants scales in 3rds (C,E,D,F etc.) and inverted 3rds (E,C,F,D), going up four notes at a time (C,D,E,F, D,E,F,G) or five, or six. A whole variety of rhythms (eg. 3 triplets, two quavers) and more imaginative (??) articulations.

I have rapidly come to the conclusion that there are very few scales I know really well.

[Dulciana]

But aren't the exercises you're now doing more akin to a piece - or technical exercise - than scales? And as such, what do you feel you're gaining from doing this instead of spending the time on a piece with melodic interest?

[TSax]

I know my major, harmonic minor, melodic minor (although I play ascending form up and down - it's a jazz thing) scales in 12 keys over the full range of the instrument.

I'm reasonably comfortable with pretty much any mode of the major scales although 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and 6th are the ones that I'll play most often.

For the harmonic minor the 5th mode (spanish phrygian) is the most useful, for the melodic minor it's the 4th mode (lydian dominant) and 7th mode (diminished whole-tone) that crop up most regularly.

Then there are major and minor pentatonics and blues scales, be-bop scales with additional passing notes...

I'm also pretty much comfortable with diminished scales (which differ from arpeggios, though I'm comfortable with those too) i.e. semitone, tone, semitone, tone or tone, semi-tone, tone, semi-tone starting from any note and whole-tone scales from any note.

I know quite a lot of scale patterns too, and don't usually have too many problems learning new ones.

The thing is, none of this is unusual for someone who's serious about playing jazz. You just do it and the more you do of it the easier it becomes, the better your solos are and the more fun the whole thing is.

[anacrusis]

I dislike practising scales, find them very tedious and although I know the theory behind them, find them an irritation and a distraction, dull to play and very annoying to listen to. I can learn technical facility in other ways (my last exam result somewhat startled me, with the highest mark being allocated to my technical facility, and by some margin), and find that focusing on the music I want to play has just as much positive impact on my ability to get round new pieces as battling through scales would have done - more so, probably, because the music speaks to my emotional state, whereas scales make me switch out.
So do I know them well? No. Has not knowing them stopped me doing what I want to do? No. Am I a lesser musician for not knowing them? Quite possibly. I've now started learning to read odd clefs and am wanting to branch out into instruments with non-standard ranges, and perhaps a better facility with scales might have been useful in the initial stages, but life's too packed to do everything - and the compromise of not doing scales is the right one for me.

[Roseau]

But aren't the exercises you're now doing more akin to a piece - or technical exercise - than scales? And as such, what do you feel you're gaining from doing this instead of spending the time on a piece with melodic interest?

They probably are. I think part of the difficulty is that it requires me to approach them differently. Scales for me were something you could play without thinking - as I posted on your thread I revised my O levels and A levels while playing scales and before I had children used to use piano scales as a stress reliever when I came home from work. What my teacher is asking me to do know requires me to concentrate and I really need them to be written out (although that is not actually a problem as my teacher thinks it is not a good idea to play from memory anyway).

As to what I get from them instead of spending a time on a piece, I think it is mainly finger dexterity and finger/tongue co-ordination without being "distracted" by dynamics or phrasing. It also helps sight-reading of orchestral pieces since fingers can go into automatic mode.

There is worse than the scales (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) When I first started I asked my teacher for some exercices to improve finger co-ordination and the book he suggested was mind-bendingly boring, with the same few notes over and over again. (He did warn me, but I didn't realise anything could be quite that boring).

[Arundodonuts]

But aren't the exercises you're now doing more akin to a piece - or technical exercise - than scales? And as such, what do you feel you're gaining from doing this instead of spending the time on a piece with melodic interest?

Interestingly my oboe teacher has just started doing the same thing with me and stopped me in my tracks by saying "right, now YOU pick a pattern or an articulation". At which point I went blank. The other day I was looking at some viola scale studies I did about 25 years ago and was amazed by the number of different ways my teacher had me doing them. I had completely forgotten. The point is, once you can play a scale in lots of different ways, you are no longer actually thinking about the scale - which is proof you know it. Oh and if you look at a lot of studies, they pretty much are this sort of thing anyway.

[heartbeat]

I play piano, so it musit be slightly different the way I practice scales, but I do them in regularly hands together stacatto, legato triplets, varying the rhythms (dotted in different places), in 3rds (chords) and the "Russian way" - hands together for 2 octaves, contrary motion for 2 octaves, back together, then up for 2 octaves and the same coming down.

And I do all of these in the different keys, but starting on a different degree of the scale everytime. I cannot tell you how long it takes!!! I have to decide on a schedule for my practice everyday (and sometimes at the beginning of the week, I plan out what I am going to do in terms of technical exercises/scales).

I usually end up doing at least 1.5 hours of scales plus 1.5 hours of Hanon/Czerny/Berens before I even touch my pieces!

[anacrusis]

Oh you poor thing!
I'd find that utterly soul-destroying....

[heartbeat]

Oh you poor thing!
I'd find that utterly soul-destroying....

Why?! I do this out of choice (and necessity to some extent) - No one forces me!

I think that attitudes towards scales are mis-placed (I may be wrong) because of the way they are assessed and taught in exam situations - you have to play them correctly, know the key signatures and make them sound good, but that is about all that is demanded of the applicants.

I can't say I particularly like scales, but if used correctly, they are fantastic for improving your technique - by analysing the way you play them and making changes accordingly, you can assess your general tone, the balance of tone between each finger, the way you use your thumb, I could go on ...

Mostly, scales are brilliant because they are technically simple to play, which gives you the opportunity to really observe (with your eyes and your ears!) they way you play.

The Hanon I use for the largely the same reasons, but also their 1 big use to me is to build strength.

The Czerny and the Berens exercises give the opportunity to hone-in on specific areas of my technique in a musical context, which can then be applied to the wider performance repertoire.

[briantrumpet]

How many different ways can I play them?

Watching Countdown, watching The Wire, watching The Muppets, watching The Life of Brian .....

Standing up, sitting down, sitting up, lying down ....

[Flossie]

Not as well as I should. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[skylark]

"How many different ways can you play them?"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/niceThread.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)


1. Majors.

2. Harmonic minors.

3. Melodic minors.

4. Sharp keys.

5. Flat keys.

6. Chromatics.

7. Relative majors and minors.

8. Groups of the same letter - C Major, C minor, etc

9. Random order.

10. Alphabetical order.


11. Dimished 7ths.

12. Dominant 7ths.

13. Thirds.

14. Whole Tones.


15. Tongued (clarinet, not piano (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif))

16. Legato-tongued.

17. Legato.

18. Staccato.


19. Straight.

20. Swung.

21. With dynamics.

22. Without dynamics.


23. Bottom - top - bottom.

24. Top - bottom - top.

25. Starting on the next note of the scale each time.

26. "Over the top" method.


27. Groups of 3.

28. Groups of 2.

29. No groupings.


30. Fast to improve dexterity.

31. Slow to improve tone/technique.


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/clarinet.gif)

32. "Normal" length notes.

33. "Long tone" notes.


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/piano.gif)

34. Each hand separately.

35. Contrary motion.

36. Similar motion.


Not all in every session though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[Maizie]

15. Tongued (clarinet, not piano (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif))

Now if you could play them with your tongue on the piano, I'd be impressed. Plus you'd always be able to get piano-time, nobody else would want to touch it after that....

[enharmonic]

15. Tongued (clarinet, not piano (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif))

Now if you could play them with your tongue on the piano, I'd be impressed. Plus you'd always be able to get piano-time, nobody else would want to touch it after that....

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Teigr]

It varies, depending on the instrument(s) involved.

But, if you include everything...

Major, harmonic minor, melodic minor, major and minor arpeggios, dominant 7ths, diminished 7ths and chromatics are the "usual" 8.
Then there's whole tone, in thirds (woodwind style), major pentatonic, minor pentatonic, blues, altered, natural minor, jazz melodic minor, Dorian, Mixolydian, Phyrigian, Lydian, Locrian, Phrygian major, Lydian b7, whole/half diminished and half/whole diminished.

Legato, legato-tongued or staccato. Different articulation patterns (eg. two slurred, two tongued). Different numbers of notes to a bow and different bowing patterns. Apoyando or tirando. p, im, mi, ma, am, other finger patterns (like ami on each note). Weird keyboard fingerings without thumb.

Straight, swung, different rhythm groupings and patterns.

Hands together or separately.
Similar motion, contrary motion, in 3rds (piano style), in 6ths, 3rd apart (one hand), 6th apart (one hand).
Chromatic a minor 3rd apart (one hand).

With different dynamics (constant at various levels or cresc/dim).

Over different ranges - one octave, a twelfth, one octave and down to the dominant, two octaves, 3 or 4 octaves. Over the whole range of the instrument, starting and finishing on whatever note.
Ascaneding/descending. Descending/ascending.
Different sections (123, 234, 345 or 1234, 2345, 3456, etc.)

Manuals only, pedals only, pedals and LH in contrary motion.

RH above left, LH above right, on any combination of Sw, Gt, Ch.
Starting different numbers of octaves apart (including with hands crossed).

Whistling. (I know it's not an instrument per se, but if you can whistle (or sing or hum) a scale it means you've internalised the sound of it, rather than just the mechanics of how to play it.)
I can whistle all the usuals and some of the others, but some are currently defeating me.


Then there's the silly stuff...
LH 2 octaves in crotchets, RH 2 octaves twice over in quavers (or vice versa). Add pedals (maybe in opposite direction) for extra fun.


And the really silly stuff (blame Bruhns for inspiring this)...
Similar or contrary motion between pedals and recorder/flute.