So Confused With Tenuto And Marcato Options

[Czerny]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) Er, the first one is marcato. The second one is just an ordinary accent!

[Holz Gedeckt]

How do I play crotchets giving them their full values ? I would be playing legato crotchets!

Yes, you would. Precisely!

It means that you shouldn't shorten them by making them detached in any way.

But heartsong is talking specifically about Baroque music where it's common practice to detach crotchets, particularly in the bass line. It's clearly sylistically appropriate to do so, and it's a very common instruction in editorial notes.

Ah, but you've missed the point, I think.

Firstly, as Petrat observed earlier, any such markings will be more than likely to be editorial ones. Secondly - and here's the crunch - such a marking is obviously an indication NOT to detach notes in a place where, otherwise, one might instinctively do.

[Czerny]

Ah, but you've missed the point, I think.

Oh, have I. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Firstly, as Petrat observed earlier, any such markings will be more than likely to be editorial ones.

Fair point, although that shouldn't mean they are contradicting the composer's intentions.

Secondly - and here's the crunch - such a marking is obviously an indication NOT to detach notes in a place where, otherwise, one might instinctively do.

I don't agree that that is necessarily the case. I have seen it used lots of times in precise juxtaposition to an instruction to detach notes. If the editor wanted a legato effect, why would they not simply use a slur instead?

Also, how do you explain staccato markings used in conjunction with tenuto? I suppose that could suggest a slightly longer staccato, but again I'm not convinced as that is usually indicated by using staccato dots in conjunction with a slur, as we discussed on a previous thread.

[Holz Gedeckt]

I don't agree that that is necessarily the case. I have seen it used lots of times in precise juxtaposition to an instruction to detach notes. If the editor wanted a legato effect, why would they not simply use a slur instead?

Also, how do you explain staccato markings used in conjunction with tenuto? I suppose that could suggest a slightly longer staccato, but again I'm not convinced as that is usually indicated by using staccato dots in conjunction with a slur, as we discussed on a previous thread.

A slur is a completely different thing, though, as it would imply that the second note be shortened. Tenuto does not imply this.

Yes, the mezzo-staccato marking which you describe merely means that the staccato be rather less detached than a normal staccato marking. But that doesn't mean it's tenuto. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[sarah123]

Ah, but you've missed the point, I think.

Oh, have I. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Firstly, as Petrat observed earlier, any such markings will be more than likely to be editorial ones.

Fair point, although that shouldn't mean they are contradicting the composer's intentions.

Secondly - and here's the crunch - such a marking is obviously an indication NOT to detach notes in a place where, otherwise, one might instinctively do.

I don't agree that that is necessarily the case. I have seen it used lots of times in precise juxtaposition to an instruction to detach notes. If the editor wanted a legato effect, why would they not simply use a slur instead?

I'm not sure if you're referring to instruments in general or just piano. If a slur is written between two notes in recorder music, it means don't tongue the second note at all whereas a tenuto mark would mean play it legato but tongued. Obviuously, there isn't this distinction between types of legato for piano.

[Czerny]

I don't agree that that is necessarily the case. I have seen it used lots of times in precise juxtaposition to an instruction to detach notes. If the editor wanted a legato effect, why would they not simply use a slur instead?

I'm not sure if you're referring to instruments in general or just piano. If a slur is written between two notes in recorder music, it means don't tongue the second note at all whereas a tenuto mark would mean play it legato but tongued. Obviuously, there isn't this distinction between types of legato for piano.

Of course there is a distinction!! Granted there are some things a piano cannot do (crescendo through a single note, for example) but there are certainly many different types of legato, if not as many as some instruments (possibly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)).

I don't agree that that is necessarily the case. I have seen it used lots of times in precise juxtaposition to an instruction to detach notes. If the editor wanted a legato effect, why would they not simply use a slur instead?

Also, how do you explain staccato markings used in conjunction with tenuto? I suppose that could suggest a slightly longer staccato, but again I'm not convinced as that is usually indicated by using staccato dots in conjunction with a slur, as we discussed on a previous thread.

A slur is a completely different thing, though, as it would imply that the second note be shortened. Tenuto does not imply this.

Only if the slur was between two notes. I meant a longer line than that.

Yes, the mezzo-staccato marking which you describe merely means that the staccato be rather less detached than a normal staccato marking. But that doesn't mean it's tenuto. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I didn't say it was!

[Holz Gedeckt]

I don't agree that that is necessarily the case. I have seen it used lots of times in precise juxtaposition to an instruction to detach notes. If the editor wanted a legato effect, why would they not simply use a slur instead?

Also, how do you explain staccato markings used in conjunction with tenuto? I suppose that could suggest a slightly longer staccato, but again I'm not convinced as that is usually indicated by using staccato dots in conjunction with a slur, as we discussed on a previous thread.

A slur is a completely different thing, though, as it would imply that the second note be shortened. Tenuto does not imply this.

Only if the slur was between two notes. I meant a longer line than that.

But tenuto is a much better way of marking that, because it applies to individual notes. Additionally, it doesn't imply that the last note in the group would be shortened, as a slur would.

Yes, the mezzo-staccato marking which you describe merely means that the staccato be rather less detached than a normal staccato marking. But that doesn't mean it's tenuto. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I didn't say it was!

But I don't think your point was correctly applied here, as that marking signifies mezzo-staccato, which is not tenuto.

[Czerny]

But I don't think your point was correctly applied here, as that marking signifies mezzo-staccato, which is not tenuto.

I know that! What I meant was - and, being a teacher, I will concede that the fault lies with me for not expressing myself sufficiently clearly - if a tenuto mark always means to make the note at least its full length, what do you think is intended when it's used in conjunction with a staccato mark? I think it means to detach the note, but emphasise it slightly. The reason I mentioned mezzo-staccato was as an indication that it (tenuto plus staccato) didn't mean that as there is already a combination of signs to indicate that manner of articulation.

Anyway, here's what Wikipedia says (and yes, I know Wiki isn't always authoritative):
"Tenuto can mean either hold the note in question its full length (or longer, with slight rubato) or else play the note slightly louder. In other words, the tenuto mark is sometimes interpreted as an articulation mark and sometimes interpreted as a dynamic mark. When it appears in conjunction with an accent mark, it is of course taken as an indication of articulation, and, conversely, when it appears in conjunction with a staccato mark, it is taken as an indication of a slight dynamic accent. When it appears by itself, its meaning must be determined by its musical context."

I prefer to think of it as an 'emphasis' or 'stress' on the note, rather than an 'accent', but otherwise the definition concurs with my understanding of what can variously be meant by tenuto marks. Incidentally, it's also used in drumming notation to indicate an emphasis.

[Holz Gedeckt]

Thank you for clarifying what you meant, Czerny. I would not disagree with what you are saying about mezzo-staccato.

BTW, your email provider is evidently having problems and I've been unable to send a reply. Can you make some room in your inbox here, please?

[Czerny]

Thank you for clarifying what you meant, Czerny. I would not disagree with what you are saying about mezzo-staccato.

BTW, your email provider is evidently having problems and I've been unable to send a reply. Can you make some room in your inbox here, please?

Well I'm sure there are a few dozen PMs from you I suppose I could get round to deleting... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[Holz Gedeckt]

Thank you for clarifying what you meant, Czerny. I would not disagree with what you are saying about mezzo-staccato.

BTW, your email provider is evidently having problems and I've been unable to send a reply. Can you make some room in your inbox here, please?

Well I'm sure there are a few dozen PMs from you I suppose I could get round to deleting... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Well, I deleted all yours ages ago! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[Czerny]

BTW, your email provider is evidently having problems and I've been unable to send a reply. Can you make some room in your inbox here, please?

Well I'm sure there are a few dozen PMs from you I suppose I could get round to deleting... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Well, I deleted all yours ages ago! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Only after you'd printed them out onto vellum and stuck them on your bedroom wall!

[Holz Gedeckt]

BTW, your email provider is evidently having problems and I've been unable to send a reply. Can you make some room in your inbox here, please?

Well I'm sure there are a few dozen PMs from you I suppose I could get round to deleting... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Well, I deleted all yours ages ago! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Only after you'd printed them out onto vellum and stuck them on your bedroom wall!

Nope, but I did print them out and use them in the bathroom.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/whistling.gif)

Who needs Andrex after all? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)