Question About Playing From Memory, keyboards in particular Options

[Teigr]

Does anyone know what's going on when people play from memory? Like, what the cues are that tell us what to do?

I just happened to try to play something earlier and couldn't do it. It was a single chant which I can play very securely from memory, but I tried to play it RH only and I couldn't do it. Both hands - no problem. RH again - still no.

So, why can my RH do its thing perfectly well when my LH is playing its part, but not by itself? What's required of my RH is exactly the same in both cases. It's not like a twiddly contrapuntal thing where the two hands need to interweave what their doing. It's just very plain chordal texture with no passing notes.

Clearly my RH is relying on my LH in some way to steer it through, but how and why? Is it the spatial relationship between the two, the sound, or what?

[maggiemay]

Interesting one Teigr ... I wonder whether the bass line somehow has a bearing on the whole thing? I mean gives some kind of prompt which when it's missing puts the alto and sop parts off their stroke in some way?

I feel fairly certain that with memory-playing, as with sight-reading, it's a very individual thing and the processes are not necessarily the same in any two people.

[Teigr]

Interesting one Teigr ... I wonder whether the bass line somehow has a bearing on the whole thing? I mean gives some kind of prompt which when it's missing puts the alto and sop parts off their stroke in some way?

That's the sort of thing I was wondering about. /Something/ about what my LH does acts as a cue for my RH. But I don't know what exactly, or why/how it works.

I feel fairly certain that with memory-playing, as with sight-reading, it's a very individual thing and the processes are not necessarily the same in any two people.

Definitely.
I'd be interested to know if anyone else here can do it. I'm using an Anglican single chant, but I think a hymn tune would be similar.

Would also be interesting to see if the results change between chant/hymns and other pieces/textures. I'm pretty sure I can play just the top line of things (by ear if not from memory). But S&A without the LH is not happening.

[maggiemay]

I'll try it out later!

[Mad Tom]

Does anyone know what's going on when people play from memory? Like, what the cues are that tell us what to do?

I just happened to try to play something earlier and couldn't do it. It was a single chant which I can play very securely from memory, but I tried to play it RH only and I couldn't do it. Both hands - no problem. RH again - still no.

So, why can my RH do its thing perfectly well when my LH is playing its part, but not by itself? What's required of my RH is exactly the same in both cases. It's not like a twiddly contrapuntal thing where the two hands need to interweave what their doing. It's just very plain chordal texture with no passing notes.

Clearly my RH is relying on my LH in some way to steer it through, but how and why? Is it the spatial relationship between the two, the sound, or what?

A lot of playing from memory is replaying a precise pattern of nerve impulses. Each step is triggered by the totality of the previous state. Change anything significant and the whole thing falls apart.

[maledictis]

I don't know what standard of pianist you are Teigr, but I find that with a fair few of my adult students around grade 4/5 level, once they have learnt something hands together, they sort of seem to lump it all together in their brain and it is really a struggle for them to separate the hands again.
I think when one is a more advanced pianist and can really think in a two-track way, i.e. listen and do different things to each hand independently, the problem tends to disappear.
I know that's not quite what you are referring to, but it seemed pertinent.

[andante_in_c]

I know that my memory for keyboard music is harmony-based, so this may be something to do with it. I often know which chord I want next, but not which inversion. So I'd be sunk playing RH only of a chant as I wouldn't know which two notes from the SATB harmony I needed.

[anglolena]

I'll try it out later!

Re playing from memory, from what I have read in Your Brain on Music and other 'music psychology lit' is that even virtuoso players remember music in 'chunks'. They recognize patterns, and if there are no patterns (virtuosi of course can recognize much more subtle patterns than average players), they too lose their places.

A soloist who has a blank in front of an audience may have to go back to the beginning of a part, or a phrase, rather than starting from a random note of the piece, because he/she will 'remember' the fingering, melody etc. in a 'chunk'.

So you may not be able to separate out the RH of your piece because for you the remembered chunk is HT, including the left hand, and without the left hand the whole thing is 'unfamiliar'. It is counterintuitive, because the RH alone sounds easier and simpler, but maybe not.

I too find I cannot often play e.g. the LH of, especially a baroque piece with the correct fingering, if I were to try it HS instead of together (from memory, without the music).

[Glass Mountain]

This is a very interesting post, and I had a discussion at great length with one of my pupil's today about it. He past his Grade 8 in December and last week after his lesson he went out and bought Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No 2. Today he came and played me, almost note perfect and from memory, ALL 18 pages of it! I asked him how he does it and he just doesn't know! He's listened to recordings of it, so obviously that's helped him learn it quicker, but how he's got all those notes in the fingers from memory in one week is beyond me. I've taught him from scratch, and in the early years it was always a battle to get him to read off the page, however, can do this as well. He doesn't learn separate hands first either.

In another scenario, my son, who's a Grade 3 and age 13 and shows the same traits as the above pupil (in that he memorizes everything very easily and does has perfect pitch) is also a mystery. He never forgets a piece he's learnt and will admit that he doesn't know how he does it. He said his fingers just do it for him (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I always hold my breath when he performs in concerts, festivals and exams, as it's 50/50 if he'll get through his pieces without slipping up. If he loses his place then he's had it (in the last festival, the adjudicator asked him if he could play from bar 10, and his answer was "no, sorry" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) However, he also plays lots of duets and trios in concerts, and never ever goes wrong. This seems to tie in with the conversations that are going about only being able to play both hands together and not one at a time. It seems that when the other parts are being played, this keeps my son on track totally.

Sorry to be long-winded, but I'm very interested in this and look forward to reading further posts on this.

[maggiemay]

I'll try it out later!

aargh - I actually find it quite difficult to do this without at the same time imagining I'm playing the other hand too.

I haven't worked out if I really can do it - because I'm not convinced I have managed at the same time successfully to obliterate thoughts of the other half of the harmony.

[Nick Cook]

Well, I'm not a keyboard/piano player, but I've started to try to play the Pink Panther theme on my sax from memory. I've been practising/playing it with the music for some time time now. I found it very hard to play from memory, but I think I'm remembering the fingerings rather than the notes/tune.

And like Anglolena said, when I get stuck, I can't start again from the same spot. I have to go right back to the beginning.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[vectistim]

I am not a brain surgeon etc. I think it is something to do with the formation of the memory in the head with synapses linking together. The more 'complex' thing _can_ be easier to remember because each element of the memory is linked to more than one other element. If you just have a tune you just have a linear run. If you are singing there are words to go with it so you have two parallel lines which then interlink and it makes it more memorable.

This is similar to mnmnmnmnmnemonics, if you were a computer they would just take up memory space, but for us they make it easier to remember. eg: Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me gives the order of mangitude of different star types (or something like that) which is easy to remember, but the plain strain OBAFGKM is unlikely to be remembered, so to get to the fourth one you are likely to look it up as Fine, rather than going straight to the F. Similarly you are likely to access the tune notes with reference to the chordal structure underneath.

[scifi-karis]

Here's an interesting thing. My two main instruments are violin and piano. I grew up on the Suzuki method for violin and thus did not learn how to read notes for many years. I learned everything by ear and was in book five before I seriously started reading notes. My teacher insisted that pieces be memorised before I was finished with them and I remember doing a concerto competition when I was 13 and being the only one who had the whole thing memorized!

Piano is a different story. I've never felt comfortable on it and even though I have a grade 8 in it I prefer certain kinds of pieces only and am not an all rounder on the instrument at all! Because of that, I have absolutely no retention when it comes to learning pieces on piano. I may be able to give the first chord or note of a piece but beyond that I can't and maybe never will be able to memorize piano music. I can play through a piece with music and look up occasionally but if I totally look away I am lost forever!

In my opinion, I think memorization has a lot to do with ear training. I have a friend who plays piano who has excellent aural skills. If he hears a piece once he can play it back to you perfectly, notes exact. He did the whole of the Messiah that way! I know once I have heard a piece for violin I have a much easier time learning and memorizing it than I do if I learn the piece and have not heard it before to begin with.

[Juan Carlos]

[quote name='Teigr' date='May 6 2009, 03:22 PM' post='823639']
[quote name='maggiemay' post='823638' date='May 6 2009, 04:14 PM']
Interesting one Teigr ... I wonder whether the bass line somehow has a bearing on the whole thing? I mean gives some kind of prompt which when it's missing puts the alto and sop parts off their stroke in some way? [/quote]
.............
To be honest, the same thing happens to me with scales. Playing HT and HS seem to be two separate and distinct abilities and I often noticed that while a scale comes really fluently HT, you realise one hand (usu. LH) does not work quite as efficiently as the other and that it is the prevalent hand which sort of pulls ahead and leads the pair. Has anyone noticed this? Not for nothing do ABRSM require HT and HS rendering of scales! I did not use to play scales HS but started to do so some time ago in order to strengthen my LH, which is considerably well "behind" the other in dexterity, force, smoothness, etc. I've also bought Berens' Exercises for the LH, which I'm planning to suggest to my teacher.

[ad_libitum]

This is a very interesting post, and I had a discussion at great length with one of my pupil's today about it. He past his Grade 8 in December and last week after his lesson he went out and bought Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No 2. Today he came and played me, almost note perfect and from memory, ALL 18 pages of it! I asked him how he does it and he just doesn't know!

Really?! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

Next lesson don't let him go home until he tells you how he did it - then tell me how please (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)