Bach Lute Suites (classical Guitar), Fingering, esp. for BWV1006a Options

[all ears]

Bit late for Viohazard's exam in 4 days' time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) but he's finding the fingering much more challenging than expected - large stretches and position jumps, and for future reference, wonders if he's not worked out the fingering properly, or whether the difficulties are the result of playing the lute suites on our modern classical 6-string guitar.

And anyway, it would be good to hear what the forum guitarists have to say about the Lute Suites in general!

[Matt Molloy]

Bit late for Viohazard's exam in 4 days' time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) but he's finding the fingering much more challenging than expected - large stretches and position jumps, and for future reference, wonders if he's not worked out the fingering properly, or whether the difficulties are the result of playing the lute suites on our modern classical 6-string guitar.

And anyway, it would be good to hear what the forum guitarists have to say about the Lute Suites in general!

Hi all ears,

Sorry for being tardy with this and the other guitar queries you had and hope Viohazard's exam went well (I'm assuming it was yesterday as this thread is dated 26th).

Point one is that most of Bach's music is quite challenging anyway (the, "It's Bach... It's Hard.. school of thought) but he might find it beneficial to look around the various transcriptions as they do vary quite a bit depending on the transcriber.

Brief run down of the few I have (not including internet transcriptions although the one available on Delcamp.net is very good).

Zen-on Guitar Library: J. S. Bach transcribed by Yasuo Abe with help from his eldest son Yasushi.

This was, pretty much, the standard book that all the classical guitarists I was at college with seemed to own. In addition to the "Lute Suites" it also had selections from the violin sonatas/partitas (including the mighty Chaconne) and 'cello suites. I've always found it very logical and economical with both position changes and hand stretches. As you're in Japan I would think that it's probably easier to get hold of than it is here too. I saw that it had been reprinted a couple of years ago and the print seemed a tad easier to read than my old version (which may be more to do with all the jottings/candle wax/tea stains that cover mine than any major improvement). Page turns aren't brilliantly thought out but once it's internalised, that shouldn't really be a problem anyway (the odd photocopied page attached as a fold out can get round this anyway). One down point is that the back needs to be well and truly flattened to get it to stay open on the music stand.

J. S. Bach: The Complete Lute Works transcribed by Jozsef Eotvos.

I really didn't like this. Didn't and still don't I'm afraid. Mr Eotvos is a stunning guitarist and it's obvious that he's done what he feels is a good version but it doesn't work for me. I suppose that it didn't help that I got it just before my own grade 8 and turned straight to the BWV1006a Gavotte en Rondeau. Played some of the way through it and found the fingerings totally whacko then turned to be beginning of the Prelude and found that he's knocked the G string down to F# in order to "replicate lute tuning" (would have helped if he'd put this anywhere else but my oversight there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) ). Why in the name of sweet lemon curd he wanted to do this I cannot say. There are a few doubts as to whether some of this music was played on the lute or whether it was meant for the lute-harpsichord thingy that Bach had, but in any case, it's meant to be in E major which is one of the more natural keys to play in on the guitar. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) This means that in bar four (and every other bar that that figure comes round again in) the second finger had to do a daft little hop over everything else to go from the B to the G# that no other transcription I've seen seems to think necessary.

The binding isn't great for staying open on the music stand and he also seems a major fan of sticking things onto two treble clefs (for clarity) really put me off. Don't get me wrong.. There are times when spreading things out a bit onto two treble clefs is useful (both in Bach and you'll find it in Britten's "Nocturnal") but here it seemed overdone and more a way of showing what he could do.

I also wasn't a fan of the fact that he and Chanterelle publish the facsimile separately as this seems to be an attempt to wrest even more money from the buyer (Eotvos edition price tag on my copy: £19.95 without any facsimile. Koonce Edition price tag on my copy: £14.95 with facsimile's included... Go figure (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) ).

That last aside brings me to, what I consider, the Rolls Royce of Bach Editions.

Johann Sebastian Bach: The Solo Lute Works. Edited for guitar by Frank Koonce

It could really be said that this one "had me at hello" as it were. Spiral binding at last! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) Fold out pages to largely eliminate nasty page turns! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) Logical and economical fingerings! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) Logical scordatura with alternatives discussed! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) Oodles of performance notes and discussion of style, context and history! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) Facsimiles of autograph manuscripts etc in the back for comparison! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) Clear printing with everything nicely spaced! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif)(IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif)(IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) Not to mention that in going through it I've just found out where I stuffed my copy of Mauro Giuliani's Fughetta Op 113 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif).

All this at a very reasonable price. Seriously recommended and it will stand Viohazard in good stead should he go for the diplomas or just for being one of the most comfortable and logical versions on the market.

One last point is that, by grade 8 level, he should feel fairly comfortable with changing the fingerings in any edition to something that may work better for him (as long as it serves the music and actually does improve things) as none of them are written in stone. If he's not comfortable doing this then perhaps his guitar teacher could look into it with him.

Hope any of this helps.

Cheers,

Matt.

[all ears]

Thanks for those comments - Viohazard's exam was cancelled (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) , because the top of his guitar cracked (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ill.gif) on Thursday night, meaning that we had to decide on Friday whether or not to contact the ABRSM agents here about the situation - no time to "wait and see". There's an old, spliced crack about an inch away in the same direction, which was there when the guitar was bought new over 30 years ago...I have traced the maker, and now have to decide whether I trust repairs to a guy who sells damaged instruments as new!

So, hoping that Viohazard will be able to resit in the next session at the end of the year, he's keeping up his exam pieces. He has the Koonce edition, because that was the one listed in the exam syllabus.Glad to hear that you think it's a good edition!

I'm pretty sure Viohazard is using a different tuning for the Bach - will ask him when he gets up in the morning! So you think that even with standard tuning there shouldn't be too much of a problem?

He's played several movements of different sonatas and partitas on violin, and although they have their challenges, he's never said that they are particularly hard to finger on violin, so perhaps he was just surprised at how different it was on guitar.

By the way, G. 8 offers a choice between the Loure from 1006a, and the Gigue from 995 (violin 1001) - he picked the Loure as he'd played the Gigue on violin. Which would you recommend to students taking G. 8?

...since he couldn't use his guitar for his last lesson, he played on his teacher's guitar for a while and they then spent an hour practicing card tricks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) . As people always say, a musician needs a back-up career!

[Matt Molloy]

Thanks for those comments - Viohazard's exam was cancelled (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) , because the top of his guitar cracked (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ill.gif) on Thursday night, meaning that we had to decide on Friday whether or not to contact the ABRSM agents here about the situation - no time to "wait and see". There's an old, spliced crack about an inch away in the same direction, which was there when the guitar was bought new over 30 years ago...I have traced the maker, and now have to decide whether I trust repairs to a guy who sells damaged instruments as new!

Sorry to hear about the exam. Not sure about the maker. Not so much the crack as you said on another thread that the frets were dodgy. Might be worthwhile looking at a different guitar entirely if possible (there are plenty of good makers in Japan. Asturias, Sakurai, etc. that make good instruments at this level.

So, hoping that Viohazard will be able to resit in the next session at the end of the year, he's keeping up his exam pieces. He has the Koonce edition, because that was the one listed in the exam syllabus.Glad to hear that you think it's a good edition!

Glad to hear that he's got the Koonce. Best one that I've found anyway.

I'm pretty sure Viohazard is using a different tuning for the Bach - will ask him when he gets up in the morning! So you think that even with standard tuning there shouldn't be too much of a problem?

He's played several movements of different sonatas and partitas on violin, and although they have their challenges, he's never said that they are particularly hard to finger on violin, so perhaps he was just surprised at how different it was on guitar.

By the way, G. 8 offers a choice between the Loure from 1006a, and the Gigue from 995 (violin 1001) - he picked the Loure as he'd played the Gigue on violin. Which would you recommend to students taking G. 8?

Am a bit confused by this. I've just rechecked the Koonce edition for the Loure 1006a (page 96) and there isn't any retuning in it but I'm more confused by the BWV numbers you're using.

Having checked the syllabus (2009) the choice is between the Gigue from BWV 997 (doesn't have an equivalent in the Violin Sonatas and Partitas or the 'Cello Suites), the Loure from BWV 1006a (equivalent to BWV1006 for violin), the Prelude from BWV 1008 ('Cello Suite No 2) and the Courante from BWV 1010 ('Cello Suite No 4).

Did you mean that he'd already played the Loure on violin so was going for the Gigue (I've never heard anyone play BWV 997 on solo violin but imagine that it would be spectacular) or have I got things completely confused? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) Is it ABRSM he's doing?

To help clear up, here's a lovely video of the guitarist Gonzalo Andrés Molano playing the Gigue (he follows it with the scarier Double but it is a nice video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDXznf-sk-g

Incidentally, I totally agree with him about transferring from one to the other. I thought violin wouldn't be too difficult after doing guitar (left hand at least) but am finding it a humbling experience. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

...since he couldn't use his guitar for his last lesson, he played on his teacher's guitar for a while and they then spent an hour practicing card tricks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) . As people always say, a musician needs a back-up career!

That's one way of making a performance "magical". (I'll get me coat...)

Cheers,

Matt.

[all ears]

...sound of alarm bells ringing loudly...

Now that everybody is awake again, I went and checked the Bach edition. I certainly thought I'd ordered the Koonce edition that was listed in the syllabus...but when you mentioned key changes I had a sinking feeling...yes, it's the Eotvos edition.

THANK YOU for alerting me to this. Your comments make a lot of sense in the light of Viohazard's grumblings. I ordered the Koonce edition, and he can look the two editions over with his teacher.

He would probably manage to relearn it with different tuning...despite his many technical shortcomings, he has a good relative ear, and got pounced on at an instrument fair by a music journalist who had been quietly following him around as he played a violin, a viola, a couple of lutes, a theorbo, and finally two early guitars with oddball tuning and numbers of strings.

Violin/Lute numberings - sorry, totally confused there. He picked the Loure, anyway.

As for the repairs, I phoned the luthier today, got to the bottom of some of the mysteries about the instrument, and have agreed to send it to him for a quote. The problem with the frets is almost imperceptible, and there's a faint line that makes me think perhaps the whole neck was reset. From what the luthier told me about his model numbers and distribution system back then, it sounds as if my brother in law's teacher palmed off a repaired second-hand entry-level guitar from a warehouse on him, telling him that it was a new professional level instrument direct from the luthier.

It's never been a very responsive instrument, and I always thought it was just lack of interest and/or skill on Viohazard's part, but he had no trouble getting the colour and volume he wanted on his teacher's instrument, and apart from the fact that it has a pine top vs. spruce on most of the guitars he's played belonging to other people, the verdict was that the bracing may have dried out and pulled away from the soundboard on Viohazard's guitar - it's nearly 35 years old. I'll have to wait to hear the quote before deciding what to do.

[Matt Molloy]

...sound of alarm bells ringing loudly...

Now that everybody is awake again, I went and checked the Bach edition. I certainly thought I'd ordered the Koonce edition that was listed in the syllabus...but when you mentioned key changes I had a sinking feeling...yes, it's the Eotvos edition.

THANK YOU for alerting me to this. Your comments make a lot of sense in the light of Viohazard's grumblings. I ordered the Koonce edition, and he can look the two editions over with his teacher.

He would probably manage to relearn it with different tuning...despite his many technical shortcomings, he has a good relative ear, and got pounced on at an instrument fair by a music journalist who had been quietly following him around as he played a violin, a viola, a couple of lutes, a theorbo, and finally two early guitars with oddball tuning and numbers of strings.

Violin/Lute numberings - sorry, totally confused there. He picked the Loure, anyway.

Hi all ears,

No problem. Glad to be of help. To be fair, I seem to remember the ABRSM used to recommend the Eotvos edition alongside the Koonce in the old syllabus, hence why I got it as I wanted to check that there wasn't anything in there that I was missing. I sometimes look into it now for comparison before running back and cuddling the Koonce edition and promising that I'll never stray again.

As to the numberings, the wife calls me a nerd about them.. She told me it was my fault that she knew exactly which piece I was talking about when I referred to the Sarabande from BWV 995... And she's not a musician. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I shouldn't worry about his relearning it in standard by the way. From what you say, he's got a lot of talent there (getting stuff out of a theorbo at first shot isn't bad at all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) ) and it'll probably make quite a few things easier, not to mention that he won't have to bother messing around retuning in the exam which is never fun with nylon strings.

As for the repairs, I phoned the luthier today, got to the bottom of some of the mysteries about the instrument, and have agreed to send it to him for a quote. The problem with the frets is almost imperceptible, and there's a faint line that makes me think perhaps the whole neck was reset. From what the luthier told me about his model numbers and distribution system back then, it sounds as if my brother in law's teacher palmed off a repaired second-hand entry-level guitar from a warehouse on him, telling him that it was a new professional level instrument direct from the luthier.

It's never been a very responsive instrument, and I always thought it was just lack of interest and/or skill on Viohazard's part, but he had no trouble getting the colour and volume he wanted on his teacher's instrument, and apart from the fact that it has a pine top vs. spruce on most of the guitars he's played belonging to other people, the verdict was that the bracing may have dried out and pulled away from the soundboard on Viohazard's guitar - it's nearly 35 years old. I'll have to wait to hear the quote before deciding what to do.

Ouch! That doesn't sound good at all. I would seriously think about getting a new instrument from how you're describing this. As I said before, there are some good manufacturers in Japan that might be worthwhile checking out alongside the more well known brands (I've known people go through college on Alhambra (one of the more well known brands) guitars, and not the highest level ones either).

Incidentally if you do go down this road, don't get caught by the "made in Spain" snobbery. One of the guitars I tried the last time out shopping was an Asturias where the shop assistant actually apologised that it was Japanese rather than Spanish but the thing pretty near played itself and only lost out as it was a mite intense on the treble side (so I'm fussy...).

Please feel free to ask any other questions about any of this and if I can't answer them the folk at Delcamp will be able to I'm sure (incidentally, it looks as though M. Delcamp has wound up the Japanese side of the forum but the people on the other language sides are very friendly and would be more than willing to pitch in and help).

Cheers,

Matt.

[all ears]

Asturias seem to be well regarded in Japan too. There was a guy from one of Japan's older classical guitar departments at Viohazard's lesson yesterday, with a handmade Japanese guitar (Viohazard had a play, but thought it sounded twangy and banjo-like whereas he wanted a fuller sound). Although there is a certain amount of "Made in Spain snobbery", Asturias is the only mass-produced brand they carry apart from some entry level instruments.

Figured out how we got that edition of Bach - you were right, it was on the old syllabus, and although we ordered most of the music from the new syllabus (naturally), we ordered the Bach earlier, assuming that the Lute Suites would always be useful, and not anticipating that edition would be dropped completely.

Thanks for all your help.

[Matt Molloy]

Asturias seem to be well regarded in Japan too. There was a guy from one of Japan's older classical guitar departments at Viohazard's lesson yesterday, with a handmade Japanese guitar (Viohazard had a play, but thought it sounded twangy and banjo-like whereas he wanted a fuller sound). Although there is a certain amount of "Made in Spain snobbery", Asturias is the only mass-produced brand they carry apart from some entry level instruments.

Figured out how we got that edition of Bach - you were right, it was on the old syllabus, and although we ordered most of the music from the new syllabus (naturally), we ordered the Bach earlier, assuming that the Lute Suites would always be useful, and not anticipating that edition would be dropped completely.

Thanks for all your help.

Aye, there are a few Japanese brands that are well regarded (Kohno, Sakurai (one of Kohno's students if I recall) and even the higher level Yamaha instruments are seen as quite good.

As to the edition... There were a few times when the AB didn't seem to be too careful in recommending an edition in the old syllabus and seemed to have had someone stick a pin in the editions that were available (and wound up choosing a version that wasn't particularly good) but that seems to be getting better with the new syllabus.

Glad to be of help.

Cheers,

Matt.

[J.D]

Too late to reply, I know. But just for the future reader, I guess (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Best edition for Bach is his own original edition, then transcribe it yourself. You can easily get the original freely, just google Bach's gesellschaft edition. For that loure, just use the violin score. It's the best. For fingering, seriously, remember what Sor said "Consider fingering an art". Meaning, make it yourself. Use those books as a reference, but try to finger it yourself.

BTW, Koonce's Bach is the best.

[all ears]

Good to hear that...I know Viohazard's teacher's own experience of auditions and exams was that they were one situation where you should stick very closely to the edition prescribed, so he was really loath to advise Viohazard to strike out on his own when preparing for an ABRSM exam.

By the way, we did get Viohazard's guitar repaired, and yes the bracing did need re-attaching. However, although better than it has sounded for a long time, we bought him an Aranjuez guitar, which was not too expensive, and much more responsive. I couldn't figure out why the model numbers for Aranjuez offered overseas were different, but it seems they are different companies and totally different guitars.