Technique For Big Chords Options

[bobifier]

Having fairly recently passed my grade 8 piano, I felt that the world was my oyster and so, despite the warnings of the various pianists I know, took it upon myself to learn Rachmaninov's Prelude in G minor, opus 23 no. 5, which, typical to his style, is simply a huge succession of huge chords. I have since found, however, that the chords are very difficult to play, and it is a fast piece, and my forearms tend to seize up really very quickly whilst practising or playing. While this might partly be due simply to strength in the forearms, from what I have heard it can also be solved by sorting out my technique, which I suspect is far too stiff. My piano teacher has more than once told me that my wrists are too stiff, and so I thought I should ask, how best to play and practise these chords? The way I play, I will most likely not be able to play it from start to finish without my arms giving out, so any help would be appreciated (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[jacobpianofluteorgan]

I've had a simialar problem, but when playing rapid octaves which make my arms tense up. I can't help you now, but I have a piano lesson tomorow where we will be looking at this exact problem, so tomorow, I'll come and sugest some things (If I remember!) that helped me.

Jacob. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[PianoDoodler]

You have answered your own question. If you are stiff when you play, you will never play this piece without exhausting your wrist and forearm muscles.

The biggest mistakes people make at your stage are these: trying to play too loudly, which leads to over-pressing into chords; trying to play too quickly, which tightens the muscles and actually lowers the speed at which you can play.

In a different thread, cadence suggested a brilliant exercise. Depress a RH cluster consisting of the two white notes and three black notes between E and B. Use just enough weight to move your wrist and forearm around, whilst keeping the cluster depressed. This shows how little weight you need to hold notes down and may give some insight into your degree of over-pressing.

Extend this into the 8 note chords that precede the octave run that leads into a restatement of the main motif in section A. Play each chord, then relax your muscles so that you are only using sufficient for holding down the notes for a few seconds.

Going back to the playing too loudly, you have to temper your attempted volume to the instrument you are playing. For example, trying to achieve the level of volume on a small upright you can achieve on a full-sized Steinway concert grand is fruitless and leads to exhausting tension.

If you accept that you cannot shatter ear-drums with your level of volume, you can then start to think about your technique when playing quick chords\octaves. The single most important thing here is to refrain from overmuch movement from your wrists. The quicker you have to play, the less movement you need from your wrists.

Hope this helps a bit.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mad Tom]

Use just enough weight to move your wrist and forearm around, whilst keeping the cluster depressed. This shows how little weight you need to hold notes down and may give some insight into your degree of over-pressing.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
The first time I played the Grave of the Pathetique for my present teacher she said "There is no need to hold the piano down, it isn't going to fly off anywhere!" which made my over-pressing after the notes had sounded seem rather comical.

Now, whenever I find myself maintaining way too much pressure on a chord I hear her voice and those same words.

[PianoDoodler]

Use just enough weight to move your wrist and forearm around, whilst keeping the cluster depressed. This shows how little weight you need to hold notes down and may give some insight into your degree of over-pressing.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
The first time I played the Grave of the Pathetique for my present teacher she said "There is no need to hold the piano down, it isn't going to fly off anywhere!" which made my over-pressing after the notes had sounded seem rather comical.

Now, whenever I find myself maintaining way too much pressure on a chord I hear her voice and those same words.

Hehe, but if we don't hold the so-and-so's down, they try to escape. After all, we only play wrong notes because the damn instrument moves. The right notes were there when we aimed for them....... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Composing Head]

Great piece, the beginning is almost like a Habanera. You shouldn't play octaves or chords from your forearms, you'll knacker yourself out before too long; you can't really get tired if you use your wrist for these passages and alternate fingerings as the passage goes up.

As an example I was having a go at the Ab Polonaise by Chopin today, and in the passage in E you'll likely tire if you play from the forearm (muscle become tense etc... wilst your wrist just stays limp). So I play this with 1-5 (E to E), 1-4 (D# and C#) fingerings (L.H.) from the wrist and hardly tire.

The leaps are a complete killer in the Rachy though, so I feel your pain.

[Matt Molloy]

I was under the impression that big chords in Rachmaninov weren't a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifKKlhYF53w...feature=related

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Not sure how it'd go down in an AB exam though.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Cheers,

Matt.

[Solari]

I was under the impression that big chords in Rachmaninov weren't a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifKKlhYF53w...feature=related

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Not sure how it'd go down in an AB exam though.

That was fantastic, thanks for sharing it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Edwardo]

Having fairly recently passed my grade 8 piano, I felt that the world was my oyster and so, despite the warnings of the various pianists I know, took it upon myself to learn Rachmaninov's Prelude in G minor, opus 23 no. 5, which, typical to his style, is simply a huge succession of huge chords. I have since found, however, that the chords are very difficult to play, and it is a fast piece, and my forearms tend to seize up really very quickly whilst practising or playing. While this might partly be due simply to strength in the forearms, from what I have heard it can also be solved by sorting out my technique, which I suspect is far too stiff. My piano teacher has more than once told me that my wrists are too stiff, and so I thought I should ask, how best to play and practise these chords? The way I play, I will most likely not be able to play it from start to finish without my arms giving out, so any help would be appreciated (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Watch the modern master of Rachmaninov at work on this very piece here live, and here a studio recording.

And if that's not enough for you, take a look at her unbelievable rendition of Rach's "Red Riding Hood" etude.

[Jazz Chicken]

I was under the impression that big chords in Rachmaninov weren't a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifKKlhYF53w...feature=related

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Not sure how it'd go down in an AB exam though.

That was fantastic, thanks for sharing it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yes, very entertaining. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[BerkshireMum]

I was under the impression that big chords in Rachmaninov weren't a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifKKlhYF53w...feature=related

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif) I want a set of those key depressers! That was so funny!

[YetAnotherPianist]

Having fairly recently passed my grade 8 piano, I felt that the world was my oyster and so, despite the warnings of the various pianists I know, took it upon myself to learn Rachmaninov's Prelude in G minor, opus 23 no. 5

Was I one of them? It isn't on the LRSM syllabus for no reason (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif).

..., which, typical to his style, is simply a huge succession of huge chords.

Now now, that isn't entirely fair, Rachmaninov has two styles - huge chords, and slushy film score. Though with regard to the latter, it isn't written as slushy film score, just often played as such (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ill.gif).

...so I thought I should ask, how best to play and practise these chords? The way I play, I will most likely not be able to play it from start to finish without my arms giving out, so any help would be appreciated (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Technique needs working up in stages, so it's a case of working out how best you can do that. In terms of how to attack a single piece with many instances of big chords, of which this is one, skim for difficulty with respect to this criterion and attack the passages in ascending order of difficulty. The answer which you likely won't be to pleased with is to learn at least one easier piece full of big chords first - the entry level for this piece is far above what would be ideal.

In terms of what you can do to help, the first bit would be to understand what's going on. Conceptually, you need finger tension for the split second the keys are going down to hold the shape and get all the notes to sound at the same time. Simply, once they're down, the down weight of the arm is sufficient. Wrist tension is comparatively less useful, but often builds up along with repeated bursts of finger tension. By way of example, clench your right hand and grasp it with your left; then, do a burst of squeeze-then-relax with your left hand. What will likely happen is a rapid burst of hand squeezing-then-relaxing, initiated by the fingers, accompanied by tension and slow release in the wrist. Further, if you then try do squeeze-release repeatedly, as fast as you can, you'll be able to feel the tension in your wrist build up. On the piano, this translates to a build-up of wrist tension with repeated finger twitches for rapidly repeated chords.

Tackling this - approach from two fronts: (i) build up finger strength, so they can hold their own with less wrist involvement; (ii) build up wrist pliability to help avoid the problem in the first place. For the former, dig out some exercises (e.g. Beringer). For the latter, assuming you've done the obvious (staccato passages in sixths and octaves, played with wrist staccato) then grab the metronome, start slowly, and build it up. Pick a passage that is under the fingers, and play again and again. No pain, no gain.

[pianophrase]

[/quote]
Hehe, but if we don't hold the so-and-so's down, they try to escape. After all, we only play wrong notes because the damn instrument moves. The right notes were there when we aimed for them....... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
[/quote]


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I agree !!

[jch48]

My hands used to lock up in the Widor Organ Toccata and for a long time I have played an abbreviated version. After seeing a teacher (not with this piece or problem) I think I've worked out that I had insufficient lateral wrist movement and I am working towards doing the whole piece - even semiquavers with 4 and 5 in the LH is interesting.

The teacher also suggested (in a Faure Barcarolle) that I was rather skating over the keys and that I needed to be more in contact with the instrument. How do I do that without falling into the 'over pressing' described above in the thread ? When time permits I shall go back to him (as he does know his stuff), but am currently not fully understanding.

How does anyone play the accompaniment to Der Erlkonig? (mind you I guess for those with larger hands their octave is my 7th or 6th).

[PianoDoodler]

The teacher also suggested (in a Faure Barcarolle) that I was rather skating over the keys and that I needed to be more in contact with the instrument. How do I do that without falling into the 'over pressing' described above in the thread ? When time permits I shall go back to him (as he does know his stuff), but am currently not fully understanding.

You can get the idea quite easily.

Play any group of notes is a 5 finger position. Play each note then take the weight off your finger, leaving just enough to hold it down for a few seconds. That will teach you to play into the key but not over-press.

How does anyone play the accompaniment to Der Erlkonig? (mind you I guess for those with larger hands their octave is my 7th or 6th).

If you can't stretch an octave. then you are stuffed. if you can then..............

The thing to remember when playing repeated thingys is not to stay still. Tension builds up in the relevant muscles and needs releasing.

In the case of Erlking, the movement is a slow up and down by your forearm allied to tiny movements from your wrist to actually strike the octaves - your fingers should only just lose contact with the notes. The forearm movement releases the tension that builds up from the octave repetition. I reckon a movement taking a bar is just about right.

Everything else needs to be right as well. Upper arm taking all the weight and doing all the work of supporting your forearm and hand; loose shoulders; straight spine - all the usual suspects but the key is the movement that releases the build up of tension.

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