Eliminating Errors Options

[Jennyanydots]

I have a problem with how to eliminate errors – wrong notes, rhythm not smooth, inappropriately accented notes etc.

I have been trying to eliminate the last few errors from a piece I learnt recently. The first half of it is fine. The second half is in three sections all of which are quite fast but not technically difficult. (I always find fast pieces difficult, but I usually get there in the end with a lot of practice.) When playing the piece at the speed I want it to go I found that usually two of the three sections in the second half would go well, without any mistakes but that I would make two or three mistakes in the other section. But it would be a different section that would go wrong each day, or each practice session.

Because there were relatively few errors and they changed all the time, it was hard to pin down where the problems were. So I decided to ‘stress test’ all three sections by playing them about 2 metronome notches faster than the speed I wanted and making a note of all the mistakes. There were quite a lot so I spent a long time working on each one – taking a few bars around the mistake, playing it slowly and in some cases hands separately, making sure it was accurate and then gradually ramping up the speed to the stress test speed. When I had finished one section I put it all together and played it successfully at my normal speed before going on to the next section. I worked through all three sections like this over several days. Then the next day I tried playing the whole piece through. The first half was fine as usual but, to my surprise and dismay, all three sections in the second half suffered catastrophic failure. I suppose I must have “tested it to destruction”! There was every imaginable error in almost every bar.

It didn’t get any better when I tried it on subsequent days, so I decided to give it a complete rest for 10 days and instead focussed on my new pieces. Then when I tried it again it had miraculously mended itself – well almost. I am now back exactly where I started, with a small number of errors in one of the three sections each time, with the other two sections going well and very smoothly. But as before, the bad section is different each time. Maybe the good sections sound a bit better than before (when they are good), but maybe that’s my wishful thinking. I’m wondering what to do now.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Mad Tom]

I have a problem with how to eliminate errors – wrong notes, rhythm not smooth, inappropriately accented notes etc.

I have been trying to eliminate the last few errors from a piece I learnt recently. The first half of it is fine. The second half is in three sections all of which are quite fast but not technically difficult. (I always find fast pieces difficult, but I usually get there in the end with a lot of practice.) When playing the piece at the speed I want it to go I found that usually two of the three sections in the second half would go well, without any mistakes but that I would make two or three mistakes in the other section. But it would be a different section that would go wrong each day, or each practice session.

Because there were relatively few errors and they changed all the time, it was hard to pin down where the problems were. So I decided to ‘stress test’ all three sections by playing them about 2 metronome notches faster than the speed I wanted and making a note of all the mistakes. There were quite a lot so I spent a long time working on each one – taking a few bars around the mistake, playing it slowly and in some cases hands separately, making sure it was accurate and then gradually ramping up the speed to the stress test speed. When I had finished one section I put it all together and played it successfully at my normal speed before going on to the next section. I worked through all three sections like this over several days. Then the next day I tried playing the whole piece through. The first half was fine as usual but, to my surprise and dismay, all three sections in the second half suffered catastrophic failure. I suppose I must have “tested it to destruction”! There was every imaginable error in almost every bar.

It didn’t get any better when I tried it on subsequent days, so I decided to give it a complete rest for 10 days and instead focussed on my new pieces. Then when I tried it again it had miraculously mended itself – well almost. I am now back exactly where I started, with a small number of errors in one of the three sections each time, with the other two sections going well and very smoothly. But as before, the bad section is different each time. Maybe the good sections sound a bit better than before (when they are good), but maybe that’s my wishful thinking. I’m wondering what to do now.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Do you have a teacher?

[Jennyanydots]

I have a problem with how to eliminate errors – wrong notes, rhythm not smooth, inappropriately accented notes etc.

I have been trying to eliminate the last few errors from a piece I learnt recently. The first half of it is fine. The second half is in three sections all of which are quite fast but not technically difficult. (I always find fast pieces difficult, but I usually get there in the end with a lot of practice.) When playing the piece at the speed I want it to go I found that usually two of the three sections in the second half would go well, without any mistakes but that I would make two or three mistakes in the other section. But it would be a different section that would go wrong each day, or each practice session.

Because there were relatively few errors and they changed all the time, it was hard to pin down where the problems were. So I decided to ‘stress test’ all three sections by playing them about 2 metronome notches faster than the speed I wanted and making a note of all the mistakes. There were quite a lot so I spent a long time working on each one – taking a few bars around the mistake, playing it slowly and in some cases hands separately, making sure it was accurate and then gradually ramping up the speed to the stress test speed. When I had finished one section I put it all together and played it successfully at my normal speed before going on to the next section. I worked through all three sections like this over several days. Then the next day I tried playing the whole piece through. The first half was fine as usual but, to my surprise and dismay, all three sections in the second half suffered catastrophic failure. I suppose I must have “tested it to destruction”! There was every imaginable error in almost every bar.

It didn’t get any better when I tried it on subsequent days, so I decided to give it a complete rest for 10 days and instead focussed on my new pieces. Then when I tried it again it had miraculously mended itself – well almost. I am now back exactly where I started, with a small number of errors in one of the three sections each time, with the other two sections going well and very smoothly. But as before, the bad section is different each time. Maybe the good sections sound a bit better than before (when they are good), but maybe that’s my wishful thinking. I’m wondering what to do now.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Do you have a teacher?

[Jennyanydots]

Yes I do have a teacher - I have had one for about 6 months and he's very good. Unfortunately, in this case my teacher can't help. The reason is that my lessons are a far more severe "stress test" than ramping up a speed a couple of notches on the metronome. My hands get so nervous - even if I force my head not to be nervous - they just turn to jelly or sometimes just stiffen up. So most of the time I can't play anything well in my lesson - apart, more recently, from Bach for some incomprehensible reason as I was always useless at Bach when I originally learnt as a kid. But this piece is Chopin, not Bach. Previously, non-Bach pieces have gone quite a lot better at my lessons if I stress tested them at home and got them really perfect. But often that takes too long. We normally move on to a new piece once my teacher thinks I know what to do and that I probably do play it reasonably well at home. He's always very nice and relaxed about it and thinks things will improve in time - which they have, but only with Bach.

With this particular piece, I had got it almost OK about 2 months ago. Part of the second section still fell apart in the lesson - far, far worse than at home. Each time for 3 lessons my teacher thought we only needed to look at it for one more lesson. Then after the stress testing described in my original post it fell apart and I had a lesson the following day. At that point at least it wasn't any worse in lesson - well I suppose it couldn't have been. By this stage my teacher must have got thoroughly fed up with it as he was quite firm about moving on to two new pieces but suggested I carry on perfecting it at home.

I really can't ask for any more help on this particular piece. I imagine that that most teachers don't find teaching adults particularly rewarding other than financially (although mine has shown no signs of this) and I must be even more unrewarding than most because of my problem with playing at my lessons (or in fact in front of anyone else). So I try very hard not to be too annoying or difficult. This must sound like I'm a complete nut-case, but actually I'm perfectly normal and full of confidence about everything else I do - it's just playing the piano where I get uncontrollably nervous.

[sbhoa]

I really can't ask for any more help on this particular piece. I imagine that that most teachers don't find teaching adults particularly rewarding other than financially (although mine has shown no signs of this) and I must be even more unrewarding than most because of my problem with playing at my lessons (or in fact in front of anyone else). So I try very hard not to be too annoying or difficult. This must sound like I'm a complete nut-case, but actually I'm perfectly normal and full of confidence about everything else I do - it's just playing the piano where I get uncontrollably nervous.

If you really don't want to let it go yet then ask for more help.
Maybe worrying about being too demanding (not annoying or difficult) is not helping.
Annoying or difficult is when you don't take any notice of your teacher but still expect to improve.
Please don't try to guess how your teacher may see you because you are an adult. Adult expectations about playing are as varied as those of children.
Once you get over this issue it might help you to settle more. You are not alone in being nervous in a lesson, particularly as an adult.

[PianissiMole]

I think I have the same or a similar problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Errors are almost random and not associated with inability to play any particular section. What is more annoying and disappointing is that they can appear even in quite simple pieces, especially where I know the piece well and am concentrating more on the dynamics that the simple note-bashing.

It does not happen all the time, and by really forcing myself to concentrate purely on playing the notes, I can reduce and sometimes even completely avoid these slips, but this is invariably at the expense of the dynamics. More importantly, I am no longer enjoying playing the piece (and this is one of the reasons why I don’t like performing) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) .

I shall watch this thread with interest as I would love to know the answer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Mole

[Mad Tom]

Yes I do have a teacher - I have had one for about 6 months and he's very good.
I really can't ask for any more help on this particular piece.

Yes you can!

I imagine that that most teachers don't find teaching adults particularly rewarding other than financially (although mine has shown no signs of this)

In my experience if a teacher takes on adults at all it is because they enjoy teaching them.

and I must be even more unrewarding than most because of my problem with playing at my lessons (or in fact in front of anyone else). So I try very hard not to be too annoying or difficult. This must sound like I'm a complete nut-case,

There is nothing unusual in playing badly in lessons. I play worse in lessons than in front of a large audience - because I know that every tiny mistake is going to be noticed. Don't worry too much. Teachers know just how hard their students find it to play well in front of them.

The teacher's job is to provide whatever help, encouragement, criticism, instruction that (in their expert opinion) they believe you to need. You need only give your attention to the task in hand. Whether the experience is rewarding to your teacher intellectually or emotionally is not your problem.

but actually I'm perfectly normal and full of confidence about everything else I do - it's just playing the piano where I get uncontrollably nervous.

So do we all, from time to time. And quite reasonably, because playing piano is an order of magnitude more demanding than most other things any of us do, and it takes ten times the effort and commitment to do it well as it takes to do most other things well. You are not alone!!

[Mad Tom]

I think I have the same or a similar problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Errors are almost random and not associated with inability to play any particular section. What is more annoying and disappointing is that they can appear even in quite simple pieces, especially where I know the piece well and am concentrating more on the dynamics that the simple note-bashing.

...

I shall watch this thread with interest as I would love to know the answer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

If anyone had a simple solution or quick fix they would make a fortune.

The following help, though they might not be what anyone wants to hear:

1. However skillful you might be - work at getting even better, so that in provate you can manage pieces 10x harder than you would ever seriously consider playing in public

2. However well you think you know a piece, learn it even more thoroughly. The very fact that our pieces fall apart under pressure, or randomly, is proof that we don't know them half so well as we deceive ourselves that we do. Aim to know your repertoire so well that you could no more take a wrong turn or make an error in a piece than you could leave home without your head.

3. Study performance psychology. Identify the particular causes of your own nervousness, tension, and mental seizures, and devise a plan to overcome them

[davidmackay]

I imagine that that most teachers don't find teaching adults particularly rewarding other than financially

I'm not sure about this. My teacher says she quite enjoys teaching adults as they are all there because they want to be. Some kids are only there because there parents want them to be. This no doubt means little practice, progression, enthusiasm, interest, poor listening......

When I left my lesson last week, my teacher told me that 'she enjoyed having me as a pupil as I progress each week'. As a cynical 38 year old bloke, it was really nice to get a compliment; they certainly don't come too often!

[Robodoc]

It has often been said that "amateurs practice until they get it right while professionals practice until they can't get it wrong". This is nonsense - even professionals make mistakes, and they do so all the time, by their standards. The differences are that 1) the mistakes tend to be much more subtle and 2) they handle them much better.

It is certainly worth practicing until you can play a piece as near note perfect as makes no difference. However, you will NEVER eliminate wrong notes completely. Fortunately, odd wrong notes often make very little difference to a performance (honestly) whereas broken rhythm or wrong articulation/dynamic sticks out like a marine distress flare by comparison! Therefore it is also worth practicing keeping going without breaking the rhythm when you do err (one of my problems is that I tend to stop and correct) and also making sure that when you do make a mistake you don't hit the next right note with an undue accent (another of my faults). The most difficult parts to get right rhythmically (and also one of the most difficult to practice) is the link point between two phrases. For this reason always practice phrases in pairs.

[Jennyanydots]

3. Study performance psychology. Identify the particular causes of your own nervousness, tension, and mental seizures, and devise a plan to overcome them

Do you have any specific suggestions on what to read?

[undividedself]

I would like to suggest the approach which has transformed my playing (for the better) over the past few months.

Being nervous at the piano implies that one is in conflict; that different parts of the mind are trying to do different things. Mental disunity prevents the formation of the consistent musical intentions which are necessary for smooth and accurate coordination of the body. The body cannot enact conflicting ideas -- a finger joint, for example, can’t both flex and extend at the same time.

At the deepest level one knows (inexplicitly) that it won't do, and this translates to fear, mistakes and bodily tension. Indeed at times the mistakes seem to occur at random, depending on mood.

Ease and reunification can be brought about by the Chopin-Neuhaus method, which I discovered over here:

http://www.pianoeu.com/

The site is jumbled and the language rather flowery so I’ll try to describe it a little.

Rather than attempting to directly and relentlessly increase control of your hands and your instrumental technique, control comes from the music itself.

You listen carefully and gently to the sound of your playing and allow yourself to enter more deeply into the virtual sound space of the imagination. It is exactly the same ‘place’ from which you enjoy music when you are not yourself producing it. It is where musical ideas live. Stefan calls it 'creative, anticipative hearing'.

‘Hearing’ denotes passivity, and yet somehow it isn’t like that: it is an active, vital process.

Which sound is one listening to? The physical sound from the instrument or the image of the sound one is intending to produce?

Somehow the question doesn’t arise because the two seem to blend together. I can’t explain why this is so, although it is perhaps less surprising if you consider what happens when you listen to recorded music. The first time around you don’t hear all of it. With each hearing you discover more richness and depth which you grow to anticipate the next time, and so on. This anticipation increases the satisfaction you derive from music.

The Chopin-Neuhaus method places less emphasis on developing technique through scales and exercises. Rather it expects that technique will co-evolve naturally with the music one learns to play. The music itself provides both the motivation and the guidance necessary for solving any technical problem as it arises.

My sincere apologies to anyone reading that considers all this to be mumbo jumbo. A year ago I would probably have agreed with such an assessment. Now I can only testify that it seems to have improved immensely both my playing and my enjoyment of the piano. Serious playing can be joyful and effortless.

‘Here I stand, I can do no other’ (Martin Luther)

[Jennyanydots]

Many thanks to all of you for your views, ideas and suggestions.

It's reassuring to discover that I'm not the only one with this problem.

2. However well you think you know a piece, learn it even more thoroughly. The very fact that our pieces fall apart under pressure, or randomly, is proof that we don't know them half so well as we deceive ourselves that we do. Aim to know your repertoire so well that you could no more take a wrong turn or make an error in a piece than you could leave home without your head.

I've obviously got a lot more work to do!

The most difficult parts to get right rhythmically (and also one of the most difficult to practice) is the link point between two phrases. For this reason always practice phrases in pairs.

I had never heard this before but a few experiments showed you are absolutely right. I'm now doing this on my current pieces.

Ease and reunification can be brought about by the Chopin-Neuhaus method, which I discovered over here:

http://www.pianoeu.com/

The site is jumbled and the language rather flowery so I’ll try to describe it a little.

It is. Your description is very clear and logical, by comparison.

The Chopin-Neuhaus method places less emphasis on developing technique through scales and exercises. Rather it expects that technique will co-evolve naturally with the music one learns to play. The music itself provides both the motivation and the guidance necessary for solving any technical problem as it arises.

I'm not sure about this. As far as possible I do try to systematically improve technique through careful choice of repertoire, rather than exercises and studies as I'd rather spend more time enjoying what I play, but I think scales and arpeggios are important too as they occur in a large proportion of the music I like.

My sincere apologies to anyone reading that considers all this to be mumbo jumbo. A year ago I would probably have agreed with such an assessment. Now I can only testify that it seems to have improved immensely both my playing and my enjoyment of the piano. Serious playing can be joyful and effortless.

I think it sounds a interesting idea. I am sure that listening is as least as important as technique, if not more so. I definitely need to try something other than my usual highly analytical approaches on this piece so I shall give it a go.

Thanks again to everyone
Jenny

[Composing Head]

I dont really see the problems with making some mistakes, as long as you keep going and it doesnt affect your abstract-image of how the piece should be realised ultimately. Of course, not in the sense that you make so many mistakes that it is unrecognizable.

Mistakes happen to the best players, and in all honesty I don't see why it should be an issue (unless you are a member of some of the ignorant brigades on youtube). Sometimes you may even find musicality in a mistake.

By the way, notice how I always get to a discussion when it's over (either 'Oh thanks everyone' or 'That settles it...' or something). Drats.

[Digby]

2. However well you think you know a piece, learn it even more thoroughly. The very fact that our pieces fall apart under pressure, or randomly, is proof that we don't know them half so well as we deceive ourselves that we do. Aim to know your repertoire so well that you could no more take a wrong turn or make an error in a piece than you could leave home without your head.

This is the nail on the head comment in this thread - what you have achieved by doing what you described in your original post is an improvement - I can assure you. However there are a couple of things that you are not taking into consideration:

1. Your expectations of how the piece should sound after all the work have increased quicker than your technical ability to catch up - ie you now realise even more than before what isn't quite right.

2. You haven't really allowed yourself time for the work to fully settle in, if that makes sense. After a prolonged period of very intense practice it does take a while for it to fully sink in and become completely effective. Sometimes the mere fact that the practice is so intense will be stressing you so you are tense when you try to play it so that anything that is not absolutely 100% will stumble. You are so concerned about not making errors that the playing becomes about that rather than the making of music.

Is this piece for an upcoming performance - if not it might be worth taking a complete break from it for a few days. If it is continue doing exactly what you have been but try gluing the different sections together in the same manner of practice - ie you have been practicing in 3 sections maybe start towards the end of section 2 covering the move into section 3.

‘Here I stand, I can do no other’ (Martin Luther)

actually he said 'hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anderes' He was German (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)