Early Music Trill Question, style, taste or convention? Options

[Mad Tom]

under pain of death, you must start on the upper note.

This way overstates the case ...

Is this one big wind-up?

Wind up? No. Just a comment on "under pain of death"

But you are right (in a different post) that I had forgotten about the expressiveness of the Clavichord - I was thinking only of Harpsichord and Organ

[anacrusis]

post deleted

[YetAnotherPianist]

Wind up? No. Just a comment on "under pain of death"

Starting on the written note here, though, would amount to completely ignoring an appoggiatura. The symbol used on the score is:

(IMG:http://www.pennuto.com/music/jsb_ornm_files/orn13t.gif)

...which is short-hand for an appoggiatura joined onto trill. Whatever ones take is on playing trills, appoggiature cannot just be ignored willy nilly, so one is clearly to start on the note above that written in this case.

[Mad Tom]

Wind up? No. Just a comment on "under pain of death"

Starting on the written note here, though, would amount to completely ignoring an appoggiatura. The symbol used on the score is:

(IMG:http://www.pennuto.com/music/jsb_ornm_files/orn13t.gif)

...which is short-hand for an appoggiatura joined onto trill. Whatever ones take is on playing trills, appoggiature cannot just be ignored willy nilly, so one is clearly to start on the note above that written in this case.

Death seems a little harsh. The worst punishment that even I have ever suggested is 8 hours of Hanon daily (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[PianoDoodler]

Wind up? No. Just a comment on "under pain of death"

Starting on the written note here, though, would amount to completely ignoring an appoggiatura. The symbol used on the score is:

(IMG:http://www.pennuto.com/music/jsb_ornm_files/orn13t.gif)

...which is short-hand for an appoggiatura joined onto trill. Whatever ones take is on playing trills, appoggiature cannot just be ignored willy nilly, so one is clearly to start on the note above that written in this case.

Death seems a little harsh. The worst punishment that even I have ever suggested is 8 hours of Hanon daily (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

One simply has to instill a sense of discipline into people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[maledictis]

Death seems a little harsh. The worst punishment that even I have ever suggested is 8 hours of Hanon daily (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

One simply has to instill a sense of discipline into people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

And, as we all know, Bach is God's favourite composer - so He could get pretty annoyed by incorrect interpretations - there could be plagues, curses... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[YetAnotherPianist]

And, as we all know, Bach is God's favourite composer - so He could get pretty annoyed by incorrect interpretations - there could be plagues, curses... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Or, heaven forbid, an ego that struggles to get through door frames (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif).

[anacrusis]

Death seems a little harsh. The worst punishment that even I have ever suggested is 8 hours of Hanon daily (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

What on earth would a student of Bach be doing with Hanon?

[PianoDoodler]

Death seems a little harsh. The worst punishment that even I have ever suggested is 8 hours of Hanon daily (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

What on earth would a student of Bach be doing with Hanon?

Nothing. He\she pre-dated Hanon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Robodoc]

What on earth would a student of Bach be doing with Hanon?

If you have an uneven floor it can help to stop the piano stool wobbling

[anacrusis]

aha, so that's what it's useful for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif). I did wonder... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[PianoDoodler]

How about replacing broken tiles on the roof?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Holz Gedeckt]

I don't know the piece in question but the general rule for pre-classical music is to start the trill from the note above. I think there is an exception where you start the trill on the note (possibly if the note before was the note above?), but that doesn't happen very often.

Yes, frequently, if the upper note is played immediately before, it sounds much better to begin the ornament on the note itself. This is fairly common practice and - more importantly - was then, by all accounts. See C.P.E. Bach et al.

Wind up? No. Just a comment on "under pain of death"

Starting on the written note here, though, would amount to completely ignoring an appoggiatura. The symbol used on the score is:

(IMG:http://www.pennuto.com/music/jsb_ornm_files/orn13t.gif)

...which is short-hand for an appoggiatura joined onto trill. Whatever ones take is on playing trills, appoggiature cannot just be ignored willy nilly, so one is clearly to start on the note above that written in this case.

Which just goes to show that, in this instance, Bach was deliberately aiming for the opposite to the convention noted above.

[PianoDoodler]

Yes, frequently, if the upper note is played immediately before, it sounds much better to begin the ornament on the note itself.

I thing it still sounds better when the trill starts on the upper note in this situation.

I treat the preceeding upper note as an anticipation of the trill, as in an anticipation at a cadence - hope that makes sense.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Holz Gedeckt]

Yes, frequently, if the upper note is played immediately before, it sounds much better to begin the ornament on the note itself.

I thing it still sounds better when the trill starts on the upper note in this situation.

'Thing' whatever you like, mate! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) If you read the whole of my post, you'll see that that is actually what I say about this particular piece! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I think, however, that musicians are often still too preoccupied with the dogma put forth that Baroque ornaments should always begin on the auxiliary, rather than the note itself and, when we hear ornaments not starting on the auxiliary, it is somehow perceived as being 'wrong'.

However, that said, I think that, as YAP has said, Bach's original ornamentation (if indeed it were written by him, but that's perhaps another thread for another day.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) ) is quite emphatic that the trill should, indeed, start on the upper note in this particular instance.