Worst Scales You've Ever Heard . . ., Hoping to make other worried teachers feel better . . . Options

[andante_in_c]

Not a teacher but...

I would say that improvising is a lot easier if you're familar with your scales. I guess if you're happy with chords (which I'm not) its less of an issue; but I find a solid knowledge of scales and appeggions substitutes for knowing chords quite well. At least, when someone announces we're playing in G minor I know which notes to stick with, which ones not to linger on, and which ones to definitely avoid. Is this as easy if you don't know which notes feature where in the scale?

I would argue that someone can be VERY familiar with G minor (or mixolydian or pentatonic come to that) and still find playing them on a recorder difficult and not terribly useful.

[sarah123]

Not a teacher but...

I would say that improvising is a lot easier if you're familar with your scales. I guess if you're happy with chords (which I'm not) its less of an issue; but I find a solid knowledge of scales and appeggions substitutes for knowing chords quite well. At least, when someone announces we're playing in G minor I know which notes to stick with, which ones not to linger on, and which ones to definitely avoid. Is this as easy if you don't know which notes feature where in the scale?

I would argue that someone can be VERY familiar with G minor (or mixolydian or pentatonic come to that) and still find playing them on a recorder difficult and not terribly useful.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Although G minor is possibly one of the more useful ones.

The only place I've ever seen obscure keys in recorder music is in the exam sight reading book. I tried to find more music to practise sight reading Db major, F# major, G# minor etc, but literally could find none.

[anacrusis]

Hem, hem. Think I'm the flautist in question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) They are a large degree of difficulty harder on the recorder, especially to someone to whom an F instrument will always be a second language. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I have just switched my Grade 8 recorder pupil to one of the TG alternative exercises. She's done scales up until now, but she's doing the double tonguing study for Grade 8 which is a great improvement. She's played every scale she's likely to need on the recorder (and some!) so I'm happy with her taking a break. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You are indeed - I just didn't want to quote you if I'd mistaken the issue (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif).

I do think facility within a scale is useful - just not sitting memorising the blighters (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif).

[andante_in_c]

You are indeed - I just didn't want to quote you if I'd mistaken the issue (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif).

I do think facility within a scale is useful - just not sitting memorising the blighters (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif).

I can play scales in the sense of moving my fingers appropriately with dots in front of me. But I cannot connect the note names to the fingerings without tying myself in knots, so I had to disengage my brain which is always risky.

I was just musing on my statement that F instruments were a second language, because I played treble recorder to around Grade 5 or 6 standard before I ever touched a flute (although I started on descant). It's more that F instruments are the language I use when I go back home, but I work and live abroad in C land. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[anacrusis]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
I'd learned the descant and the oboe before the treble - so although now I'm F dominant, I recognise your dilemma only too well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif).

[Misti]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Tis funny, I learnt the descant and treble long before I touched a flute, and for a long time would play my flute music on the treble recorder to get the rhythms in place before I tackled it on the less familiar instrument. I'm not sure when my flute playing overtook my familiarity on the recorder, but I'm equally comfortable with all three sets of fingerings (though not on the upper notes of the recorder, which sound dreadful when I play them anyway).

I can empathise though, I'm currently trying to master a fife someone bought me with a whole new set of patterns as well as (loosely) D becoming C, E becoming D and so on. For some reason this is frying my brain a whole lot more than when I first learnt treble fingerings! I think its worth persisting with though, as then I'll be able to transpose another interval by just pretending I'm playing a different instrument.

I do think scales help with improvisation, but can well believe that other skills can make up for it. My aural skills and knowledge of chords are lousy, so I guess I have to rely on scales. I don't recall much of recorder music in very standard keys requiring much improv (excepting of course all the interpretation, but that's slightly different (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)). Also, I never learnt scales on the recorder, but am well aware that the cross fingerings (and hence scales) are a lot nastier than those on the flute!

[andante_in_c]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Tis funny, I learnt the descant and treble long before I touched a flute, and for a long time would play my flute music on the treble recorder to get the rhythms in place before I tackled it on the less familiar instrument. I'm not sure when my flute playing overtook my familiarity on the recorder, but I'm equally comfortable with all three sets of fingerings (though not on the upper notes of the recorder, which sound dreadful when I play them anyway).

I can empathise though, I'm currently trying to master a fife someone bought me with a whole new set of patterns as well as (loosely) D becoming C, E becoming D and so on. For some reason this is frying my brain a whole lot more than when I first learnt treble fingerings! I think its worth persisting with though, as then I'll be able to transpose another interval by just pretending I'm playing a different instrument.

I do think scales help with improvisation, but can well believe that other skills can make up for it. My aural skills and knowledge of chords are lousy, so I guess I have to rely on scales. I don't recall much of recorder music in very standard keys requiring much improv (excepting of course all the interpretation, but that's slightly different (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)). Also, I never learnt scales on the recorder, but am well aware that the cross fingerings (and hence scales) are a lot nastier than those on the flute!

I'm perfectly ok translating the dots to fingerings on the treble, but struggle to name the notes! The really odd thing is that I find I can't name them off the score unless I shake my brain up a bit. Even though they are exactly the same notes I would have no trouble naming on a flute. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

The problem with scales specifically is the memory one. I can play scales from memory absolutely fine on the flute or piano. But the confusion over the letter names interferes with the recorder ones. I would be fine playing them on a descant or tenor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) I don't think improv would be a problem were I ever to need it on a recorder, as I would be thinking in terms of a set of fingerings rather than note names. As long as I get the starting note for a key correct I would then just switch into those fingerings. And, although I picked up the G minor example earlier, it's only the remote keys that cause problems. So all-in-all, a rather unlikely scenario.

[windy]

Anyone who plays the clarinet is used to the F/C dilemma - as the chalumeau register has F as the RH little finger note (if you use that key) and the clarion register has the same fingering (plus register key) to produce C.

Sort of like two recorders in one! I should be good at the treble recorder now but can't blow softly enough!

[dolce@piano]

Just an update:

Girl with worst scales ever heard has got her result - 10 for scales !!! Not brilliant but frankly slightly generous all things considered.

(P.S. She got merit/distinction marks for all her pieces but failed the sight-reading and scraped the aural - as she and her parents say : it's only the pieces that count ! I try to counterbalance this view but it's hard . . . . ).

Anyway, she passed overall so here's to onwards and upwards.

[maggiemay]

Girl with worst scales ever heard has got her result - 10 for scales !!! Not brilliant but frankly slightly generous all things considered.

(P.S. She got merit/distinction marks for all her pieces but failed the sight-reading and scraped the aural - as she and her parents say : it's only the pieces that count ! I try to counterbalance this view but it's hard . . . . ).

Anyway, she passed overall so here's to onwards and upwards.

Glad your pupil passed D@P - I wonder whether it would be worth putting together a hypothetical mark list based on what might have happened if she had scored, say, an average pass in her scales and other 'unimportant' sections. Could it be useful to show the parents - or would they not be interested I wonder?

[dolce@piano]

Girl with worst scales ever heard has got her result - 10 for scales !!! Not brilliant but frankly slightly generous all things considered.

(P.S. She got merit/distinction marks for all her pieces but failed the sight-reading and scraped the aural - as she and her parents say : it's only the pieces that count ! I try to counterbalance this view but it's hard . . . . ).

Anyway, she passed overall so here's to onwards and upwards.

Glad your pupil passed D@P - I wonder whether it would be worth putting together a hypothetical mark list based on what might have happened if she had scored, say, an average pass in her scales and other 'unimportant' sections. Could it be useful to show the parents - or would they not be interested I wonder?

Thanks Maggiemay.

Yes, I'll definitely make the point but the mother delegates all musical decisions to the father and the father is often absent and has VERY set views (which very rarely coincide with mine).

I think my main line of attack will be the girl herself - after all, she's coming up for 11 so she's old enough to understand . . . .