Ricci On Glissando Shifting, Also chin and shoulder rests, ooh-er! Options

[all ears]

Just got "Ricci on Glissando" (comes with DVD, a very useful feature). The book is largely an examination of Paganini's left-hand hold and shifting technique, and as son Viohazard has been thrashing his way through the Caprices, he was planning to use this book after finishing his guitar exam. But a broken guitar meant that he didn't take the exam, and meanwhile school exams are about to start - not that he's studying very hard, I suspect he's engrossed in a 3-volume history of Venice! Anyway, he doesn't know that the book has arrived, and I'm having a quiet read of it first (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) .

Since I'm not a violinist, I can't comment on the musical side, and should mention that Ricci doesn't seem to think that everybody should stamp their chin and/or shoulder rests underfoot (unless they want to).

However, a couple of things caught my attention. Viohazard had such a laissez-faire teacher from ages 6-12 that he was never taught to shift positions - his teacher just said, "You seem to have worked it out for yourself while playing things by ear, away you go then!" His current teacher was horrified by his shifting, yet what Ricci describes sounds very much like the Viohazard approach - thumb follows fingers instead of hand moving all at once, and more stretching with less actual shifting.

I wonder if this approach is almost an instinctive one? It didn't seem to cause him trouble with intonation, though he did need to learn to manage his thumb when fingering high positions on the lower strings.

The other point, also raised in some other threads on chin-rests, is the connection between chin-angle and left-hand hold. With his old teacher, Viohazard was always struggling to find the right place to put his chin, and found it difficult to get comfortable with the shoulder rest. I wonder if the pain people often struggle with comes just at the time when they are working hardest on position shifting?

at the time it seemed that being left-handed, the problem was caused by favouring his left eye when reading the music. However, looking at all these chillingly familiar photos, I can't help thinking that the connection between left-hand grip/shifting and head/chin position is even closer than people keep saying it is! If you look at Ricci on Youtube, he is sometimes gazing right down the fingerboard, and at other times, his gaze is almost at right-angles to the violin.

Ricci comments that the left-hand technique he is demonstrating covers a 5-note chord per position, rather than 4 notes. I can't comment on how that works out, but it's an interesting thought.

It may be that Ricci is overstating or perhaps oversimplifying his case, but this is certainly a most interesting book. Would never have thought of buying it if Viohazard hadn't found Ricci such an interesting violinist to listen to.

P.S. Forgot to say, the DVD is on right hand technique. Takes some concentration to watch, as he's not a fluent presenter and definitely getting older, but his comments are very practical - "THIS is what happens if you use your hand like so..." and it looks to be well worth watching if you are in a "can't see the wood for the trees" state of mind over bowing and bow-grip.

[bohemian]

His current teacher was horrified by his shifting, yet what Ricci describes sounds very much like the Viohazard approach - thumb follows fingers instead of hand moving all at once, and more stretching with less actual shifting.

Hi (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I use this book daily. I don't believe that thumb following fingers is what Ricci intends in a lot of cases. Certainly in shifting downward in the exercises provided it's important that the thumb (well, technically the elbow) leads, and that the hand moves as a unit in non-glissando shifts, opening the wrist before shifting. The thumb sometimes follows on upwards glissandi, and has in certain other exercises like his 8ve extending to 11ths exercise, and most upward extension exercises. But it's important that this technique is used only in the right context, and not exclusively.

If you look at Ricci on Youtube, he is sometimes gazing right down the fingerboard, and at other times, his gaze is almost at right-angles to the violin.

That demonstrates the importance of flexibility of position more than anything. The thing is that Ricci can't be taken as a model of excellence in posture, because he's very short and that's why he often holds the violin straight out in front of him.
However what you said about pain in finding the right posture is indeed connected to shifting. For starters pain should never be an issue in violin playing. If it is, I would say remove the shoulder rest because there are likely to be some major issues in posture and balance. If playing without a shoulder rest is impossible (aside from shifts in lower position, eg 1st to 3rd, or long shifts, eg 7th to 2nd) then the perception of balance is wrong and no set-up will be comfortable until the problem is addressed.
I am always sad to see how many players use shoulder rests to mask problems, usually because their teacher has forced a shoulder rest upon them from day 1 without any sensible consideration for a player's personal preference, ability and physical shape, and without bothering to explain how to balance the violin, something which is extremely difficult to understand with a shoulder rest on. Ricci is a prime example of great balance in playing (as are many who play without a shoulder rest like Heifetz and Milstein).

Ricci comments that the left-hand technique he is demonstrating covers a 5-note chord per position, rather than 4 notes. I can't comment on how that works out, but it's an interesting thought.

Just that he likes to use extensions really! I'm not sure it's a great idea until you're really advanced because it throws the hand out of the normal shape which we use to play in tune.

[all ears]

Thanks for those comments, Viohazard will be interested to read them. I read your comments on the TPO aspects of stretching and relative thumb/finger positions in shifting - one thing that has always interested me is that, on the whole, in classical guitar Viohazard is expected and required to stretch from a position if that is the practical solution, whereas in violin the feeling seems to be more that if you feel you need to stretch, you should be shifting position.

Thanks for the warning on reading the book carefully. It is extremely interesting reading, not only for technique but for the ways in which he echoes what all the great pedagogues have said from Baillot to Auer - that a good ear is the best teacher, etc.

I'm not so sure that Ricci's height is responsible for his sometimes "straight out in front" hold - that would mean that almost every Japanese violinist should need to hold their violins that way! I wonder if age and restricted shoulder movement has something to do with it though.

What part of the book do you use most often? Viohazard has only had a handful of lessons over the past year, and feels the drop-off in technique really badly - hence the decision to get some guidance on working through the Caprices.

As far as teachers and shoulder rests go, as a parent I feel quite sympathetic - not only are kids constantly learning new and different techniques, but their bodies are growing and changing, and they keep needing a new size instrument or bow! It must be hard to pinpoint the most important factor. When a kid keeps tossing the shoulder rest back in the case, something is wrong, but when they don't even notice whether they're using it or not, I can't tell if that means the shoulder rest is quite comfortable, or the kid is permanently out to lunch!

P.S. Paganini was apparently left-handed. I wonder if his left-hand technique was partly the result of a naturally more flexible approach to left-hand use - Viohazard is strongly left-handed too (though sadly that hasn't turned him into a Paganini!) and his natural tendency seems to be to use his left hand more flexibly than the prescribed approach suggests.

[scifi-karis]

P.S. Paganini was apparently left-handed. I wonder if his left-hand technique was partly the result of a naturally more flexible approach to left-hand use - Viohazard is strongly left-handed too (though sadly that hasn't turned him into a Paganini!) and his natural tendency seems to be to use his left hand more flexibly than the prescribed approach suggests.

I don't think left-handed-ness has anything to do with left hand technique. Starting out, some left handers may have an advantage because they are more aware of what their left hand is doing, but it could have something to do with age as well. Young children develop around the instrument that they are learning. Holding a violin is a very unnatural thing when you think about it! If you learn how to hold it properly from a young age you develop to the instrument, thus making a case for why it can sometimes seem easier for young children to pick up things on an instrument. Look at gymnasts and young athletes! Their bodies adapt to whichever sport it is that they play and sometimes that stunts their own growth because they have adapted to whatever it was that they grew up doing. I've been playing violin since I was 6 so nothing on the violin seems unnatural to me because my body adapted to it at a young age ... but I could be delving into a hugely complicated thing here and I hope that it isn't off topic! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kenm]

I have long been surprised at the use of shoulder rests by violinists who find the violin too shallow for the length of their necks. I would expect the relationship between the arms and the instrument to be more important than that between chin and instrument, and for the playing position to be most comfortable when the instrument was as low as possible relative to the shoulders. This also gives the best view of the fingerboard. Long chin rests are available (I think of them as "giraffe" style; I'm not sure if that is a common name) and deal flexibly with the neck-length problem.

I discussed this recently with a professional violinist who coaches the strings of my orchestra, and he acknowledged the force of my argument. Of course, the human body is very adaptable, and many people brought up on the use of shoulder rests will be quite content with them. However, the long chin rest is an option that should be considered by anyone who is not comfortable with their playing position. For those lacking sufficient natural padding over their collar bone, a thin (5 - 10 mm.) shoulder pad might be desirable.

The first three hits from a Google search on

violin "long neck" "chin rest"

discuss both chin rests and shoulder rests.

FWIW, I never think about my left thumb when shifting. Of course 'cello and bass are more stable than upper strings, so shifting is much easier.

[rosfrog]

I have long been surprised at the use of shoulder rests by violinists who find the violin too shallow for the length of their necks. I would expect the relationship between the arms and the instrument to be more important than that between chin and instrument, and for the playing position to be most comfortable when the instrument was as low as possible relative to the shoulders. This also gives the best view of the fingerboard. Long chin rests are available (I think of them as "giraffe" style; I'm not sure if that is a common name) and deal flexibly with the neck-length problem.

I discussed this recently with a professional violinist who coaches the strings of my orchestra, and he acknowledged the force of my argument. Of course, the human body is very adaptable, and many people brought up on the use of shoulder rests will be quite content with them. However, the long chin rest is an option that should be considered by anyone who is not comfortable with their playing position. For those lacking sufficient natural padding over their collar bone, a thin (5 - 10 mm.) shoulder pad might be desirable.

The first three hits from a Google search on

violin "long neck" "chin rest"

discuss both chin rests and shoulder rests.

FWIW, I never think about my left thumb when shifting. Of course 'cello and bass are more stable than upper strings, so shifting is much easier.

You're so right Kenm - I have a friend who is a physiotherapist specialised in helping musicians and she always says that the bowing angle needs to be as near to the shoulder as possible, therefore the use of a shoulder rest is almost never appropriate - she claims it would only be pertinent if we were trying to keep the fiddle as near to the jaw as possible, which is not the case. She would always recommend a chin rest extension for extremely long necks and proper lessons on how to hold the fiddle (which shouldn't even be on the shoulder).

But people still continue saying 'oh yes but everyone is different' - right, so why do we give them all the same solution, then? If everyone is different and all striving for the same thing (fiddle as low as possible for good bowing) then the space above the fiddle needs filling, rather than under it and in that case a tailor made solution is the only way forward - so, everyone is different = tailor made solution - that makes much more sense than 'everyone is different so let's give them all a shoulder rest by default'...

I was so pleased the day I was shown how to play without a shoulder rest - it feels wierd at first (took me about a year to get used to it) but the benefits are enormous. Still, you have to really WANT to do it!

[all ears]

Young children develop around the instrument that they are learning.

That is very true - instruments seem to be just extra body parts for very young children...they don't think about colle or spiccato or whatever, they just fool around with their bows and listen to what happens. Talking about the body adapting, I remember being slightly shocked when a local pianist said conversationally to Viohazard when he was about 9, "You play the violin..?" then as her eyes fell on his hands, she suddenly said "Oh...you REALLY play the violin!". Apparently his knuckles and tendons looked different.

Ken, what you are saying about the need for a higher chin rest rather than a higher shoulder rest makes a lot of sense, and I read the same comment in Ricci's book.

In retrospect, it disturbs me a little bit that growing kids' needs are not addressed - teachers often don't know much, parents know less, and it's somehow regarded as a minor issue. It wasn't until Viohazard was older that I noticed how many kids started complaining about their shoulder rests or shoulder pain around age 10. (Viohazard switched to a deeply curved Mach One shoulder rest at that point...his teacher has since swiped it, so maybe it's time to get restless!!!)

Viohazard's teacher up to age 12 just said airily that all teenage boys have ghastly holds and left-hand technique, and she'd given up worying about it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) . Obviously girls grow too, but boys grow faster over a shorter period of time usually, and often have a really bony period in their early teens when nothing seems to make the violin sit comfortably on the shoulder...and probably their position shifting is changing month by month.

Out of curiosity, what practical difference does the absence of a chin or shoulder rest seem to make to left-hand behaviour? And does it seem practical or desirable to do the Ricci thing and keep the left hand resting against the ribs of the violin much of the time? That is what Viohazard used to do until his new teacher got him to really practice positions.

[scifi-karis]

Out of curiosity, what practical difference does the absence of a chin or shoulder rest seem to make to left-hand behaviour? And does it seem practical or desirable to do the Ricci thing and keep the left hand resting against the ribs of the violin much of the time? That is what Viohazard used to do until his new teacher got him to really practice positions.

Lots of professional violinists I know swear by shoulder rests and lots don't. It doesn't seem to affect their technique but I suppose if you start developing pain in your shoulders, back or arms that might be one thing to experiment around with! Personally, I use a shoulder rest because my left hand feels more relaxed that way. I also don't have a raised shoulder and I'm much more relaxed across my shoulders and back. One of the things my teacher drilled into me was relaxation with everything! I tended to raise my left shoulder without a shoulder rest and you should actually be evenly proportioned. Your left hand should not support the violin because it has enough things to do by itself!

I have not read this Ricci book but I'm not sure what you are saying by the left hand resting against the ribs of the violin. Do you mean that he plays with a collapsed wrist? Is this in first position? If so, I have to disagree with that for sure! Please clarify?

[all ears]

Ricci playing Paganini Caprices a while back - you can see his fingers "creepy-crawling" down the fingerboard, but his wrist is not collapsed in a "frying pan hold" (but neither is it pushed right out the way you sometimes see). There are several photos in the book itself of the kind of hold and stretches he is talking about.

That performance was a while back. I don't know how well it represents what he's talking about in the book, though he said it was studying the caprices that made him realize how much rests had changed the way people play violin.

He does say that he doesn't advocate totally abandoning modern technique.

As far as I can make out, his points are:

* pre-chinrest, violinists supported the violin mainly with the left hand, leaving the head free to move. This led to a natural preference for glissando in shifting.

* Modern shifting has the thumb move at the same time as the fingers in a series of jumps, whereas in the past the fingers were more mobile, crawling up and down the fingerboard, with the thumb moving rather less (that is, you can't "creep" the same finger down the fingerboard unless the thumb is fairly stable, if I understand this correctly).

* The wrist-to-rib position is a natural result of having four fingers in contact with the fingerboard (instead of the 3-point modern hold), as the elbow has to move closer to the body. Ricci suggests that Paganini's downward sloping violin hold is related to this. I think this is also related to Ricci's remarks on using the pads of the fingers (as happens when your finger is stretching back or forward) rather than being too wedded to vertically placed fingertips only.

* Ricci says that Paganini is described as having his wrist against the ribs, with his fingers extending "backward" to first position and "forward" to the higher positions. He suggests you try playing certain extracts from the Caprices this way.

One of the best things about the book is that it is about half exercises - some his own, and some from other sources.

[bohemian]

Out of curiosity, what practical difference does the absence of a chin or shoulder rest seem to make to left-hand behaviour? And does it seem practical or desirable to do the Ricci thing and keep the left hand resting against the ribs of the violin much of the time?

Chin/shoulder rests are completely irrelevant if you have good technique and balance. I can play whether I use nothing at all or any combination of rests. Your chin is nothing to do with it really, nor is your shoulder. Once you realise that the primary points of contact are the lowest joint of the thumb and the collarbone (a very small area of contact) then you realise how pointless this whole discussion is. Really it's just an issue of comfort, and for those with small hands and small little fingers it's also an issue about being able to let go of the neck completely and what's necessary to enable that. If you have big enough hands to always leave your thumb on the neck, or if you're not playing above around 8th position, your chin/shoulder rest should make absolutely no difference to how you play.
All this talk of "filling the gap" is complete nonsense.

About the LH/ribs thing, it's only something to explore once regular shifting and hand positions are completely mastered and intonation is 100% secure in any position. I guess for most people that means after 10-15 years of playing. Given that it only becomes useful around the level of Paganini caprices and only in similar virtuoso works (or modern repertoire) it's not something that the majority of players ever need worry about, and when it does become relevant then at that stage you should be a good enough violinist to work it out for yourself without having to analyse every last hand movement and position.

[nova]

I have long been surprised at the use of shoulder rests by violinists who find the violin too shallow for the length of their necks. I would expect the relationship between the arms and the instrument to be more important than that between chin and instrument, and for the playing position to be most comfortable when the instrument was as low as possible relative to the shoulders. This also gives the best view of the fingerboard. Long chin rests are available (I think of them as "giraffe" style; I'm not sure if that is a common name) and deal flexibly with the neck-length problem.

I discussed this recently with a professional violinist who coaches the strings of my orchestra, and he acknowledged the force of my argument. Of course, the human body is very adaptable, and many people brought up on the use of shoulder rests will be quite content with them. However, the long chin rest is an option that should be considered by anyone who is not comfortable with their playing position. For those lacking sufficient natural padding over their collar bone, a thin (5 - 10 mm.) shoulder pad might be desirable.

The first three hits from a Google search on

violin "long neck" "chin rest"

discuss both chin rests and shoulder rests.

This caught my eye as I have only just (ie in the last couple of weeks) changed my chin/shoulder rest set up, mainly because of shoulder/neck pain and general tension in playing.

I now have a high chin rest, raised a bit further with cork and my shoulder rest is as low as possible and just fills the gap between the back of the violin and the slope of my shoulder. I'm still getting used to it but generally feel much less strained and 'fixed', and far more in contact with the violin, which I think is improving intonation.
I'm still looking around for a 'squashier' shoulder rest but for the moment it's a good compromise. The main thing seems to be that my left arm is much freer which makes shifting easier.

N

[scifi-karis]

* Ricci says that Paganini is described as having his wrist against the ribs, with his fingers extending "backward" to first position and "forward" to the higher positions. He suggests you try playing certain extracts from the Caprices this way.

Wow ... that is so interesting! I've always been fascinated by Paganini. Would you recommend buying this book, then?

[rosfrog]

I have long been surprised at the use of shoulder rests by violinists who find the violin too shallow for the length of their necks. I would expect the relationship between the arms and the instrument to be more important than that between chin and instrument, and for the playing position to be most comfortable when the instrument was as low as possible relative to the shoulders. This also gives the best view of the fingerboard. Long chin rests are available (I think of them as "giraffe" style; I'm not sure if that is a common name) and deal flexibly with the neck-length problem.

I discussed this recently with a professional violinist who coaches the strings of my orchestra, and he acknowledged the force of my argument. Of course, the human body is very adaptable, and many people brought up on the use of shoulder rests will be quite content with them. However, the long chin rest is an option that should be considered by anyone who is not comfortable with their playing position. For those lacking sufficient natural padding over their collar bone, a thin (5 - 10 mm.) shoulder pad might be desirable.

The first three hits from a Google search on

violin "long neck" "chin rest"

discuss both chin rests and shoulder rests.

This caught my eye as I have only just (ie in the last couple of weeks) changed my chin/shoulder rest set up, mainly because of shoulder/neck pain and general tension in playing.

I now have a high chin rest, raised a bit further with cork and my shoulder rest is as low as possible and just fills the gap between the back of the violin and the slope of my shoulder. I'm still getting used to it but generally feel much less strained and 'fixed', and far more in contact with the violin, which I think is improving intonation.
I'm still looking around for a 'squashier' shoulder rest but for the moment it's a good compromise. The main thing seems to be that my left arm is much freer which makes shifting easier.

N

What about one of those little cushions, nova? Or just a piece of folded chamois ?

[all ears]

Scifi-karis, Ricci has an older book on left-hand technique (that I haven't seen). You might like to check them both out on Violinist.com.

The Glissando book is an old man's book - it's a bit wandery in places.....but extremely interesting, and I'd much better have a wandery book than Paganini's promised but never delivered work on technique!

As a bystander, I really can't judge which of Ricci's books is more useful, but I think it probably falls into the same group as things like Baillot's work on violin...you couldn't shut your eyes to everything else and just rely on this one book. On the other hand, it's not only interesting and valuable in itself, it makes you think hard about "the rules".

As a non-player, what I find interesting in this book is that it takes another look at techniques that are practical but often frowned on. I guess lots of great things have started that way...CPE Bach's book on keyboard talks about the stupidity of ignoring the thumb in keyboard playing - but who nowadays would try to play the piano without using their thumbs?

Viohazard started out with a very strange position-shifting technique for several reasons...when he was tiny, the luthier used a different brand of e-string, and he didn't like how it sounded, so he avoided that and used other strings instead...his teacher was accompanying him on piano, and didn't notice for a long time that Viohazard was not playing the "correct" fingering...his second teacher kept him in first position for a further couple of years, by which time Viohazard had figured out for himself where each note was on each string.

Of course, there were many bad habits that needed to be corrected, but my interest in language learning makes me very interested in the steps that people take "naturally" when they try to master a new skill. While there are often shortcuts that are detrimental in the long run, usually the reasoning behind the shortcuts is sound. From that point of view, taking an unprejudiced look at the advantages as well as the disadvantages of "unorthodox" techniques is always interesting - if not from a violinistic point of view, then always from a metaphysical point of view!

[bohemian]

I now have a high chin rest, raised a bit further with cork and my shoulder rest is as low as possible and just fills the gap between the back of the violin and the slope of my shoulder.

I promise that filling the gap is completely unnecessary. I have no contact between my shoulder and the violin whatsoever, and nor do many great players like Heifetz and Oistrakh who play without a shoulder rest. The only points of contact you should have are the lower joint of the thumb, a small area of the collar bone, and a small area under the chin. I'm constantly amazed how few players understand this.

What you might experiment with is a Huber pad, which only comes into play on certain unstable techniques like vibrato and LH pizz where the instrument physically moves and a little stabilising support can be useful. Most of the time you don't even notice the Huber pad is there though, if your balance of the violin is correct.