Ricci On Glissando Shifting, Also chin and shoulder rests, ooh-er! Options

[DiscoPants]

Who's a great pedagogue? Zakhar Bron? Shoulder rest user. Bad boy.

[all ears]

Who's a great pedagogue? Zakhar Bron? Shoulder rest user. Bad boy.

Discopants, could you spell that out for thicko here please?

Do you mean..."Zakhar Bron is a great teacher, and he uses a shoulder rest"?

[DiscoPants]

Who's a great pedagogue? Zakhar Bron? Shoulder rest user. Bad boy.

Discopants, could you spell that out for thicko here please?

Do you mean..."Zakhar Bron is a great teacher, and he uses a shoulder rest"?

Yes, sorry. Just trying to be colourful (and obviously failing) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

Anyway, while I'm responding, one more thing. The argument that a shoulder rest makes the violin too high for "correct" bowing is, I believe, fundamentally flawed. The violin was never designed with any notion of "correct" bowing in mind. Rather, violin technique evolved to fit the instrument. Admittedly, the various schools of violin technique evolved on the basis of restless instruments, but there is no reason whatever to assume that a correct, non-injury inducing technique is impossible with a slightly higher lying instrument supported by a shoulder rest. In a nutshell, there is no "correctness" to support the no-rest argument - just historical precedent.

[bohemian]

Who's a great pedagogue? Zakhar Bron? Shoulder rest user. Bad boy.

I'm not sure why people are trying to make out that ANYONE here is arguing that no-one should ever use a shoulder rest in any circumstances, and that if they do they must be a truly awful violinist. Quite clearly what rosfrog and I are saying is that knowing how to play without a shoulder rest is necessary if one is to play well with a rest, and that a shoulder rest can be the cause of, or hide, problems with balance and associated techniques, primarily shifting, posture and vibrato. Similarly clearly, we are saying that while in some cases a shoulder rest can be of use once a good balance is established and the role of the shoulder rest minimised and explained properly to the student, in many cases a shoulder rest is not appropriate and some alternative such as a sponge, pad, higher chin rest etc is more sensible, but not a route that most teachers bother to explore (I wonder why - because they lack the understanding themselves, or because it's easier just to give everyone a Kun/Wolf rest and hope they don't care enough to realise that they might be causing permanent, irreversible damage to their bodies?)

There's really no more to it. It's a bit boring reading the same old stuff over and over again with people trying to demonise anyone who suggests that a shoulder rest isn't always a good thing.

[DiscoPants]

Who's a great pedagogue? Zakhar Bron? Shoulder rest user. Bad boy.

. Quite clearly what rosfrog and I are saying is that knowing how to play without a shoulder rest is necessary if one is to play well with a rest

And I think that that is a waste of time.

[river]

i can play both with and without a rest, but i usually play with, because when i don't have one, and thus have to support the fiddle more with my left hand, my intonation gets much worse. is that a common problem?

[DiscoPants]

i can play both with and without a rest, but i usually play with, because when i don't have one, and thus have to support the fiddle more with my left hand, my intonation gets much worse. is that a common problem?

I don't know. I play equally badly with and without a shoulder rest.

[DiscoPants]

Who's a great pedagogue? Zakhar Bron? Shoulder rest user. Bad boy.

I'm not sure why people are trying to make out that ANYONE here is arguing that no-one should ever use a shoulder rest in any circumstances, and that if they do they must be a truly awful violinist. Quite clearly what rosfrog and I are saying is that knowing how to play without a shoulder rest is necessary if one is to play well with a rest, and that a shoulder rest can be the cause of, or hide, problems with balance and associated techniques, primarily shifting, posture and vibrato. Similarly clearly, we are saying that while in some cases a shoulder rest can be of use once a good balance is established and the role of the shoulder rest minimised and explained properly to the student, in many cases a shoulder rest is not appropriate and some alternative such as a sponge, pad, higher chin rest etc is more sensible, but not a route that most teachers bother to explore (I wonder why - because they lack the understanding themselves, or because it's easier just to give everyone a Kun/Wolf rest and hope they don't care enough to realise that they might be causing permanent, irreversible damage to their bodies?)

There's really no more to it. It's a bit boring reading the same old stuff over and over again with people trying to demonise anyone who suggests that a shoulder rest isn't always a good thing.

If we were all in the pub, having a few beers, I'm sure we could all have a good natured discussion. In cyberspace, the most minor difference of opinion can seem like WW3.

[rosfrog]

Bohemian, I agree entirely with everything you said.

Discopants, that's a very good point - if we were sat round having coffee we'd probably laugh and take the mickey out of each other's theories in a good natured way, whereas it all goes a bit wrong on the net.

River - I'm the opposite now, when I play with a rest I have to focus more on intonation than when I play without a rest, but I'm just used to not using one, I suppose. It only takes me a couple of minutes to adjust, though.

This is one of those eternal debates that people will never agree on, I suppose. There are great players and teachers in both camps, so each time we give an example, someone else can counter it - which makes the whole discussion very long and pretty much unresolvable.

I'm highly in favour of the pub route - anyone else?

[nova]

I don't know. I play equally badly with and without a shoulder rest.

So do I, sadly. Although the sound is bigger without the Wolf, I am clumsier than with it. Anyway my Huber pad arrived yesterday and not only feels horrible but caused me to make a chip in my lovely varnish. I shall go on experimenting and will probably end up making something.
N

[rosfrog]

Nova, these things are really popular in France - perhaps might be a bit nicer?

http://www.playmusic123.com/POEHLAND+SHOUL...roduct~1723.htm

[nova]

Nova, these things are really popular in France - perhaps might be a bit nicer?

http://www.playmusic123.com/POEHLAND+SHOUL...roduct~1723.htm

Thanks, it looks amazingly similar in shape to the half constructed one in my sewing basket! I'll persevere with my chamois leather home made variety, and if no good will give this one a try.

N

[bohemian]

Quite clearly what rosfrog and I are saying is that knowing how to play without a shoulder rest is necessary if one is to play well with a rest

And I think that that is a waste of time.

I'd love to see you break a shoulder rest in the middle of a concert. Perhaps then you'd change your mind - although I doubt you'd ever admit it.

[DiscoPants]

Hi Bo,
I am very pragmatic. I change my mind all the time.

I also have tremendous admiration for your violin knowledge and commitment to your studies.

These shoulder rest threads always seem to follow the same pattern. You guys basically imply that anyone who uses a shoulder rest is a bit of a mug, and then when people disagree, you turn it round and accuse them of being vindictive and dogmatic.

In truth, I'm not at all anti-anti-shoulder rest. Actually, I think playing without one is quite cool. What I am is anti-dogma.

Have fun at Trinity. They're building up a really good violin faculty there.

[bohemian]

You guys basically imply that anyone who uses a shoulder rest is a bit of a mug

But not at all. I just think it's sad that so many teachers are unable to even consider that there's an option of playing without one and that they are necessary. I think it's really important that people understand that they can cause problems. So can playing without a rest, though, but it's not easy to hide problems when you lose the rest whereas with a rest you can cover up all kinds of technical deficiencies that will only come to light years later, a really frustrating situation (and one that I experienced).

So no, I think you're wrong to say we're implying that shoulder rest users are rubbish. I think you should re-read my previous thread on this post where quite clearly I stated that. But you're correct that I am dogmatic in so far as I see no reason for people not to practice occasionally without one, even if they have a perfect set-up, to remind themselves of the basic elements of the violin hold, highlight any existing problems and trace their improvement in a more neutral way than with a rest, and for the purely practical reason that we can't rely on always having a shoulder rest to hand. If you think that's a waste of time then you are clearly not a pragmatist at all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


PS - Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm only really going there because of who my teacher will be, but things seem to be looking up at TCM in a lot of ways.