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> Pronounciation Of Composers' Names, Does it matter?
Aeolienne
post Nov 9 2009, 10:12 PM
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Last Saturday I was performing in a concert with the Exeter Recorder Orchestra. As per usual, the concert was shared with another group, in this case the Exeter Youth Orchestra. For the EYO's bits it fell to individual players rather than the conductor to announce each piece. One of the pieces was Ravel's Pavane and I was rather shocked to hear the composer's name pronounced to rhyme with naval. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) Perhaps unsurprisingly the hapless announcer gave the title of the piece in English. (Allegedly Ravel came up with the title Pavane pour une infante défunte solely to use all the different nasal sounds in French!)

Not the first time I've heard a composer's name mispronounced, alas. My school's head of music, no less, once pronounced Verdi to rhyme with nerdy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Am I being overly picky?
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Juniper
post Nov 9 2009, 10:19 PM
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No you're not being picky, I feel the same.

Reminds me of a documentary I had to watch years ago for A level Music. It was a BBC 2 programme and it was announced as The Life and Works of Persil!!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

or maybe I'm picky too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)
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skylark
post Nov 9 2009, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE(Juniper @ Nov 9 2009, 10:19 PM) *

Reminds me of a documentary I had to watch years ago for A level Music. It was a BBC 2 programme and it was announced as The Life and Works of Persil!!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)


See the thread I started on How Do You Pronounce Purcell, and this post in particular!!!
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Juniper
post Nov 9 2009, 10:33 PM
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QUOTE(skylark @ Nov 9 2009, 10:27 PM) *

QUOTE(Juniper @ Nov 9 2009, 10:19 PM) *

Reminds me of a documentary I had to watch years ago for A level Music. It was a BBC 2 programme and it was announced as The Life and Works of Persil!!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)


See the thread I started on How Do You Pronounce Purcell, and this post in particular!!!


Oh cripes, now I'm confused!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Not going to start on that one, I'll admit to ignorance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hides.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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anacrusis
post Nov 9 2009, 11:22 PM
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It's a difficult one, because there seem to be names which have a conventional English pronounciation which is not actually entirely correct - and the Germanic composers in particular are the ones I notice in this context: Mozart and Beethoven in standard English diction sound differently from how they would spoken by native German speakers, many English people can't say "Bach" and call him bark, and of course with Händel we have the added problem that two countries claim him as their own, and pronounce him differently too. I really really can't abide Mozart being pronounced "mozzart" but cope with "mow-tsart" because that is the conventional English way to say it - and people look at me as if I'm being pompous if I say "maw-tsart" with German vowels and consonants rather than English ones....

So what I'm trying to say really, is, okay, try to pronounce things as nearly as you can, but don't bust a gut over it, and for others making mincemeat of names, just put it down either to ignorance or a lack of linguistic ability.

I have been acquiring a lot of Polish patients over the last few years, and have suuuuch fun trying to pronounce all those Szcz combinations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif).
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Dulciana
post Nov 10 2009, 12:17 AM
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How is Beethoven pronounced in German?
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DaisyChain
post Nov 10 2009, 12:54 AM
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QUOTE(Dulciana @ Nov 10 2009, 12:17 AM) *

How is Beethoven pronounced in German?


Lut-vic fan Bet-ho-fen

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...n_Beethoven.ogg
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Babybird2
post Nov 10 2009, 08:07 AM
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There's not too much you can do wrong with Beethoven as long as you don't pronounce the "Beet" bit like "beetroot" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

How do you pronounce Pachelbel and Faure?

I should probably know the pronunciation of Pachelbel seeing as he's German, but somehow I don't (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
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RoseRodent
post Nov 10 2009, 08:24 AM
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Since the word is pronunciation not pronounciation maybe it's best not to throw stones in a glass house. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I agree that we are very rarely pronouncing these things correctly as the composer himself would have done, so I am not sure it matters how close to convention we get, it's just something that has been conventionally construed as a mark of ignorance. Spelling is another area of irritation, particularly with Russian composers. My old school teacher fussed at me about the spelling of Tchaikovsky and (because I was a pain in the butt kid!) from that moment on I always wrote it in cyrillic script. Tchaikovsky never began with a T, it began with a "tcha" or a "tche" depending which area of the former Russian empire you were in at the time.

The only correct way to spell proper names (since they cannot be added to a formal dictionary) is the way the original owner of the name spelled it. In those days that left a great deal of scope for variation!
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anacrusis
post Nov 10 2009, 01:50 PM
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QUOTE(Babybird2 @ Nov 10 2009, 08:07 AM) *

There's not too much you can do wrong with Beethoven as long as you don't pronounce the "Beet" bit like "beetroot" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

How do you pronounce Pachelbel and Faure?

I should probably know the pronunciation of Pachelbel seeing as he's German, but somehow I don't (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)


Beethoven is usually pronounced wrongly in English though - and it's a vowel sound which isn't easy to reproduce with the English set of vowels unless you live in Scotland, where the ee is a little similar to the Scots "eh" as I hear it said in Edinburgh or Glasgow. And the o is also more of an aw sound than an English oh, and the v in German is an f sound - these things may sound insignificant to English speakers, but they are differences a German speaker would pick up on. What I was trying to say was - we can be really pedantic and take things as far as that, demanding perfect pronunciation for everything, or accept that there need to be compromises (and I am advocating the latter, cos life's too short to be that picky.) I must admit though, I'd love it not to get those looks if ever I do say German names correctly - there seems to be the impression that it's pretentious to do so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif).
The ch of Pachelbel would be the same as that in Bach - as he is when properly pronounced, that is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif).

RoseRodent -sorry about my extra u in one of my last -my keys slipped (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif).
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Babybird2
post Nov 10 2009, 02:00 PM
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Thanks for that explanation - I'm sort of fluent in both German and English, so I can read things both ways, if that makes sense. It can get somewhat confusing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
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Solari
post Nov 10 2009, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE(Aeolienne @ Nov 9 2009, 10:12 PM) *

Not the first time I've heard a composer's name mispronounced, alas. My school's head of music, no less, once pronounced Verdi to rhyme with nerdy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)


Err... how are you supposed to pronounce "Verdi"? - I thought it was like the German "wer" and english "dee" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)
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Arundodonuts
post Nov 10 2009, 02:15 PM
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QUOTE(Solari @ Nov 10 2009, 02:07 PM) *

QUOTE(Aeolienne @ Nov 9 2009, 10:12 PM) *

Not the first time I've heard a composer's name mispronounced, alas. My school's head of music, no less, once pronounced Verdi to rhyme with nerdy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)


Err... how are you supposed to pronounce "Verdi"? - I thought it was like the German "wer" and english "dee" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

German "wer" is pronounced "vare".
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viola-mad
post Nov 10 2009, 02:23 PM
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[quote name='anacrusis' date='Nov 9 2009, 11:22 PM' post='893713']I have been acquiring a lot of Polish patients over the last few years, and have suuuuch fun trying to pronounce all those Szcz combinations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)./quote]Sorry, I know it's slightly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/offTopic.gif) but I know this one! And since Anacrusis didn't say so, the Polish szcz is pronounced as English sh + ch as in pushchair.
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Solari
post Nov 10 2009, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE(pushpull @ Nov 10 2009, 02:15 PM) *

German "wer" is pronounced "vare".


My intention was to highlight there being a bit of an accent on the "er" - I couldn't really think how else to put it... hence not quite sounding like "nerdy"... *shrug*
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