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How Long It Take For Adult To To Complete Abrsm Grade 8 Violin?


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#1 chienx

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 06:36

hi. just wonder what is the average years for adult to complete abrsm violin from beginner?How many hours needs to practice daily?
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#2 Gorf

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 10:24

Hallo,
I think it is one of those, "How long is a piece of string", type questions. It depends where you are starting from in musical experience, how long you can practice each day, how keen you are to do the exams and how good the tea is?

At my rate I am looking to do Grade 8 then I am 90 and have a huge amount of musical fun along the way. rolleyes.gif
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#3 fsharpminor

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 10:41

Children beginning at age 7 or 8 wold expect to do a grade a year.
But an adult already reading music and being prepared to put in plenty of practice , and with lessons form a good teacher might manage it it 5-6 years. Its up to you eally how much time you put in.
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#4 Guest: Mad Tom_*

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 11:22

There is a school of thought, with good supporting evidence, that it takes 10,000 hours of "directed practice" to reach a professional standard in anything.

If we take DipABRSM as representing a professional standard then it comes down to how long it will take to do the 10,000 hours.

Working at it full time (40 hours a week) that is 5 years. You would have to be enormously gifted and/or hard working to get from beginner to first Diploma any faster than that.

At a more realistic 20 hours a week (about 3 hours a day) it is 10 years.

Bear in mind that "directed practice" is a precise technical term. It is NOT the same as "Time spent with your instrument". It is possible to spend many hours - quite possibly enjoyable hours, that do not count towards that total.

So allowing for years when you lose interest, wasted time, missed practice sessions etc.

It could easily take 20 years or more.
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#5 stevensfo

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 12:51

QUOTE
There is a school of thought, with good supporting evidence, that it takes 10,000 hours of "directed practice" to reach a professionalk standard in anything. At a more realistic 20 hours a week (about 3 hours a day) it is 10 years.


I don't see how this can be. My experience is that it depends very much on how much the person wants to study and also their own natural talent. Some people are so crazy about their subject that they soak up everything like a sponge and need almost no time to get to a high standard.

With such people, doing a grade every six months is easy. A friend of my son got from grade 5 to 8 in clarinet in two years.
Also, if they read music and already play an instrument, they'll probably get to grade 5 within a few years anyway.

Steve (Wishing I was one of those people!!)
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#6 Mini_mo

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 13:18

QUOTE(Mad Tom @ Nov 16 2009, 11:22 AM) View Post

There is a school of thought, with good supporting evidence, that it takes 10,000 hours of "directed practice" to reach a professionalk standard in anything.

If we take DipABRSM as representing a professional standard then it comes down to how long it will take to do the 10,000 hours.

Working at it full time (40 hours a week) that is 5 years. You would have to be enormously gifted and/or hard working to get from beginner to first Diploma any faster than that.

At a more realistic 20 hours a week (about 3 hours a day) it is 10 years.

Bear in mind that "directed practice" is a precise technical term. It is NOT the same as "Time spent with your instrument". It is possible to spend many hours - quite possibly enjoyable hours, that do not count towards that total.

So allowing for years when you lose interest, wasted time, missed practice sessions etc.

It could easily take 20 years or more.


Mad Tom, your answers are always spot on. biggrin.gif Learning an instrument = A discovery in learning to have patience wacko.gif
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#7 StuMac

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 13:51

QUOTE(stevensfo @ Nov 16 2009, 12:51 PM) View Post
QUOTE
There is a school of thought, with good supporting evidence, that it takes 10,000 hours of "directed practice" to reach a professionalk standard in anything. At a more realistic 20 hours a week (about 3 hours a day) it is 10 years.


I don't see how this can be. My experience is that it depends very much on how much the person wants to study and also their own natural talent. Some people are so crazy about their subject that they soak up everything like a sponge and need almost no time to get to a high standard.

With such people, doing a grade every six months is easy. A friend of my son got from grade 5 to 8 in clarinet in two years.
Also, if they read music and already play an instrument, they'll probably get to grade 5 within a few years anyway.

Steve (Wishing I was one of those people!!)




The idea is based on the fact that people who are keen on something practise more.



Several studies have shown that most people who achieve a high standard in music do a lot of practise, and it has proved very difficult to identify a group of especially gifted people who learn quickly. Obviously, there are the people like Mozart who learn so fast that they just could not have amassed the amount of practice needed, but these studies are actualy talking about the general population.



The evidence suggests that high achievers practice more, and that their practise is more "directed". In fact there is more that one study which sugests that musicians who have achieve a high standard have actually practised so much that their measured rate of improvement is actually abnormally *slow* (i.e. practise hours per grade).



Within limits, there is no evidence that adults learn music more slowly than children if you relate things back to hours of proper practise. I posted one of the articles on here years ago.



Similarly with language, although Steven Pinker et al. insist that adults can't learn languages, the simple fact is that if you take someone of the streets of Britain and throw them into a prison in Bangkok where they hear nothing but Thai for 5 years, then they will emerge (if they emerge at all) speaking the language fluently. The experiment has been done time and time again and it always works. I personally feel that the "Pinker" school of language acquisition is very heavily biased by US culture - the Americans are even worse than the Brits at speaking other languages.



To come back to the original question - I was once told that it takes 20 years of daily practise to become a good pianist. I think that's about right!!
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#8 Debra

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 15:02

I agree, i do a lot of practice (usually), and seem to be getting on fairly quick, as far as i can make out from what i have heard. i started from scratch --- not even knowing what a crochet was! I think it is important to add that i do practice in a structured way ( except when messing about), so you need to practice in the correct way as well! I started playing grade 2 at about 3 months. It is like you say, the amount of work/practice done is because i love playing the violin. But, some people simple do not have the time------ however, i even stay up to 1.30 in the morning if i have to. So, if you only manage 20mins/day, then i quite believe it could take 1-1.5 years per grade-----but if you are fine with that----thats o.k.
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#9 Arundodonuts

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 15:49

QUOTE(Mad Tom @ Nov 16 2009, 11:22 AM) View Post

There is a school of thought, with good supporting evidence, that it takes 10,000 hours of "directed practice" to reach a professionalk standard in anything.

If we take DipABRSM as representing a professional standard then it comes down to how long it will take to do the 10,000 hours.

The figure often quoted for Grade 8 is 2000 hours. With due regard to stevensfo's comment that is not set in stone. Some people will be quicker, some slower, though I also concur with StuMac - those who appear to advance effortlessly in very little time actually put in a lot of work.
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#10 Deborah

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 17:12

Dare I ask why the OP needs to know anyway? It's not a race, and there are no prizes for reaching a particular grade within a short period of time.

There's plenty of great music out there without the need to do exams, but if the need strikes, take as long as necessary. If one feels the need, what's better - taking X years and passing with 100, or taking Y years and passing with 140?

There are a few things with which I've been involved in the past that I would never have started had I known just how long it would take, but the journey to the final destination (including a few beautiful diversions as well as a couple of dead ends) has been a fantastic one, with the rough bits of path making the arrival taste all the sweeter smile.gif
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#11 Mini_mo

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 17:20

QUOTE(pushpull @ Nov 16 2009, 03:49 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Mad Tom @ Nov 16 2009, 11:22 AM) View Post

There is a school of thought, with good supporting evidence, that it takes 10,000 hours of "directed practice" to reach a professionalk standard in anything.

If we take DipABRSM as representing a professional standard then it comes down to how long it will take to do the 10,000 hours.

The figure often quoted for Grade 8 is 2000 hours. With due regard to stevensfo's comment that is not set in stone. Some people will be quicker, some slower, though I also concur with StuMac - those who appear to advance effortlessly in very little time actually put in a lot of work.


Are you saying the figure to reach grade 8 from 0 is 2000 hours or grade 7 - 8 is 2000 hours? (You can tell I havent a clue!)

Just for a laugh... (based on 2000 hours for grade 0-8)

By my calculations 2000 hours divide 8 grades = 250 hours per grade.
At grade 2ish currently so 250 x 6 remaining grades = 1500 hours left to go.
1500 divide 10 hours practice per week = 150 weeks of practice.
150 divide 52 weeks per year.....

....... only 2.8 years to go until I will be collecting my grade 8 certificate. rofl.gif rofl.gif rofl.gif rofl.gif

Never in a million years will that happen! He he


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#12 vectistim

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 17:40

QUOTE(Mini_mo @ Nov 16 2009, 05:20 PM) View Post

Are you saying the figure to reach grade 8 from 0 is 2000 hours or grade 7 - 8 is 2000 hours? (You can tell I havent a clue!)

Just for a laugh... (based on 2000 hours for grade 0-8)

By my calculations 2000 hours divide 8 grades = 250 hours per grade.
At grade 2ish currently so 250 x 6 remaining grades = 1500 hours left to go.
1500 divide 10 hours practice per week = 150 weeks of practice.
150 divide 52 weeks per year.....

....... only 2.8 years to go until I will be collecting my grade 8 certificate. rofl.gif rofl.gif rofl.gif rofl.gif

Never in a million years will that happen! He he


If someone really did that much _quality_ practice then I don't see why not.

I've just had a quick play with the calculator and starting from a position of being fairly competent at playing various recorders (ie: a bit of musical awareness and ability to read the wrong clef for it) I reckon it took me less than 100 hours per grade to reach grade 7 viola (from about aged 9 to about 16/17)

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#13 NigelC

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 18:13

The OP should bear in mind that we're all different and also our circumstances change from time to time.

I started at Gr5 and passed Gr8 in two years - without skipping any grades in between on classical guitar - same as Violin it's got strings!!

At the time I was really driven to achieve my goal and I managed it with the tremendous help of my tutors.

Unfortunately, just after my Gr8 my circumstances changed (some will know why) and for a while I just couldn't bring myself to play. So for me the "rush to proceed" was definitely the right thing to do, because if I'd delayed I don't think I would have ever reached my goal.

I didn't have a specific time frame in mind, but I was determined to try and move from grade to grade as quickly as possible. Because I had to do the Theory paper as well I ended up taking an exam just about one every six months.

In addition work has recently got really busy, and at this stage I don't think I could put in the same amount of practice as I was able to do previously.

I have the Dip niggling in the back of my mind and the only reason I haven't mentioned it to my tutor is that knowing what I had to do to get to Gr8, I'm not sure I have the fortitude to go for it. If anyone has any thoughts/suggestions I'd be grateful.

Anyway, back on topic, whilst it is true that dilligent practice is a must, only you can determine whether or not you have the time and motivation to reach your goal.

By the way I'm not saying that Gr8 is the be all and end all - just that it was my objective at that particular time. Loads of people will remind you that it's not a race and that ultimately the more dilligent you are with your journey the better player you will be - and I wouldn't contradict that.

Best of Luck,
Kind Regards,

Nigel
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#14 Guest: Mad Tom_*

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 18:28

QUOTE(pushpull @ Nov 16 2009, 05:49 PM) View Post

The figure often quoted for Grade 8 is 2000 hours. With due regard to stevensfo's comment that is not set in stone. Some people will be quicker, some slower, though I also concur with StuMac - those who appear to advance effortlessly in very little time actually put in a lot of work.

According to John Sloboda of Keele University (Chapter 4 of "The Road To Excellence, edited by K. Anders Ericsson) the total hours from beginner to Grade 8 is approaching 3,500. Those "quick learners" may appear to learn effortlessly with little time invested. Appearances are often deceptive. When you start to keep accurate logs you find out just how much they really do.

QUOTE(Mini_mo @ Nov 16 2009, 07:20 PM) View Post

Are you saying the figure to reach grade 8 from 0 is 2000 hours or grade 7 - 8 is 2000 hours? (You can tell I havent a clue!)
. No it is 3,500 - give or take a few hundred to account for genetic differences and previous experience.

Unfortunately the figures in the study are presented in a bar chart, so it is hard to read off accurate numbers per grade, but Grade 7 to Grade 8 appears to be about 1000 hours - which is almost as many as it takes to go from beginner to Grade 5

QUOTE(Mini_mo @ Nov 16 2009, 07:20 PM) View Post

By my calculations 2000 hours divide 8 grades = 250 hours per grade.


Not so simple. According to the same study the time to improve by one grade is not constant. It gets greater with each successive grade. (See previous point)

Perhaps we can treat the DipABRSM as being somewhat below a professional standard of performance, and so requiring fewer than 10,000 hours. Perhaps 7,000 is more realistic .
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#15 Mini_mo

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 22:00

QUOTE(vectistim @ Nov 16 2009, 05:40 PM) View Post

If someone really did that much _quality_ practice then I don't see why not.
I've just had a quick play with the calculator and starting from a position of being fairly competent at playing various recorders (ie: a bit of musical awareness and ability to read the wrong clef for it) I reckon it took me less than 100 hours per grade to reach grade 7 viola (from about aged 9 to about 16/17)


I am sure there are people that can achieve it but I wont be one of them. It would take me a whole year for my sight reading to improve to the next grade! blush.gif


QUOTE(Mad Tom @ Nov 16 2009, 06:28 PM) View Post

Not so simple. According to the same study the time to improve by one grade is not constant. It gets greater with each successive grade. (See previous point)


Yes I agree with that... I was just being silly really! smile.gif rolleyes.gif
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