Young/mutational Voices, just a word of advice Options

[Dugazon]

I am starting this thread because of another thread in the parents' forum. Since I don't want to bring that one off topic, I will rather write something here.

First off all - it is very tricky for me to find the right words, since I don't want to sound lecturing or as if I am trying to put someone down. However, as some of you already know (we had many discussions on similar subjects in the past), I feel very strongly about this, and that's why I would like to say these things.

The post sparking this was Dawnmc71's:

My daughter is 11, and singing at a grade 7 standard (but she has only been singing for 2 years). Up until this year she has not been able to read music. It is only now she is having lessons with a great coach that we realise just how talented she is!!!!

And yes, we are planning ahead - which is why I want to get her through grade 5 before her school work starts to get heavier. She wants to go to RCM or similar to study opera performance so she has a definate aim....her coach thinks she has a very bright future and he has performed many opera roles, in fact he adores teaching her because she works so hard.

I don't doubt at all that your daughter is extremely talented. However, given her age, I would just like to address a few things I find very important:

The voice does not work like other instruments (violin, piano, whatever). Earlier does not always necessarily mean better in this case. Unlike with many other instruments, you can have a full professional career starting comparably late (even as late as 18 - female larynges and therefore voices develop until their mid-twenties, so you really have ample time). That doesn't mean of course you HAVE to start late. If you start early though, there are things you definitely need to watch.

I know many professional singers, some even with international careers, who don't touch children's (especially mutational) voices with a bargepole, because they know about the problems. They leave the work to specialised teachers.
I sadly also know a few (again with very impressive careers themselves) though who think that a child's voice can be trained the same way as an adult's voice, and then you have Charlotte Church coming out at the other end (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)
Always keep in mind that a professional operatic career does not necessarily mean that someone knows how to teach children's voices. It can of course if someone has done their homework.

I don't mean to say at all that this is the case with your daughter's teacher, but you might want to ask a few questions just to make sure. No responsible teacher will mind this. Ask what they do differently with (pre-)mutational voices, ask if they recognised any changes recently. if so, ask what mutational stage they are currently in. If they give good answers, you are safe.

Changing voices (and your daughter's voice sits absolutely in that age-bracket) have to be treated with immense care. I will write a bit about mutation in girl's voices, so you understand the background a bit better:

Unlike boys' voices, girls' voices go only through 4 mutational stages (boys have 5). Any type of high impact singing, with this I mean full classical/operatic and Belting alike, usually has to be avoided in stages 2-5 in boys' voices and 2-3 in girls' voices. You can get a lot of advice on this in the works of Deirdre Trundle, or Vocal Process.

It is of course impossible to say where your daughter is at the moment, but girls tend to start around 10 at the moment, tendency falling (if you are not Caucasian, it might even be earlier). And whilst the voice change in girls is far less dramatic than in boys, it usually stretches over a longer time, sometimes as long as 5 years, but rarely less than 3.

A good singing teacher will be aware of the changes, and certain physical developments usually go hand in hand with certain vocal changes. You can usually assume that you still have a true child's voice as long as you have a real child's body (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) You won't do much harm as long as this is the case, provided you don't overdo it - a child's body is seldom physically strong enough to pull off the support required for full operatic and Belt-type vocal qualities, although you get the odd one out. I still don't teach it to this age group, because there is no need - better safe than sorry.

You can normally tell that a girl enters mutation by the colour of their voice - the bright, clear kid's tone of voice disappears gradually and starts to "warm up" a bit. I won't go into too much detail here, but it usually goes hand in hand with the first apparent physical changes. So if your daughter started developing breasts, you might want to have a closer listen to her voice as well.

As long as there is no breath in the voice, you are usually safe. Be aware though that especially voices who get vocal training might be more skilled to mask the onset of stage 2 by actually starting to force the sound a bit to keep it free of air - you really have to listen quite carefully.

To prevent misunderstandings: I am not saying that a breathy tone is bad (although in classical singing it is considered as such, that's what makes classical vocal training such a tricky thing at this age) - just, that the onset of a slight breathiness will tell you that your daughter has entered stage 2. And from here, certain vocal qualities are NOT safe anymore. Most of these probably don't mean much to you, that's why I won't name them all, but especially Opera and Sob will probably have significance in your daughter's vocal development if she is getting trained classically. Opera needs to be avoided during that time, Sob usually as well, although you get some girls who can still do it without too many problems. A skilled and responsible teacher will change to other qualities during that time - mainly Cry and Speech (although Twang is also safe). Problem is, they usually sound still quite "child-like", and some teachers don't like this sound in the higher grades.

These rules apply as long as there is still breath on her voice and she "yodels" a bit (usually a sign of stage 3, although not every voice has the same difficulties). The yodel usually appears when the lower part of the voice starts to develop, and not every girl is equally skilled to incorporate these new found notes into their range. Even if they are, it doesn't mean that the voice is less vulnerable.

High impact training is only safe again as soon as the tone is completely clear and the lower range has stabilised - this can be as late as 16/17 in some girls, others are already through the worst by the time they are 13/14 - it really depends on when the hormonal changes begin and how quickly they walk through it. There are no set rules, that's why it is so important to really LISTEN and being constantly aware.

The reason why am writing in so much detail is that the "grade 7 in two years" worries me a bit to be totally honest, since it goes against everything I consider vocally sane at that age. From my experience, in a girl that age, one of the two following things are usually the case:

1. They are musicaly very gifted and can absolutely sing grade 7 songs. Their vocal development though is usually far from grade 7 standard. Sadly, even some singing teachers don't make a difference between the two.
2. They are vocally at grade 7 standard because they have been singing in set-ups far from appropriate for their voice, which is even more worrying.

It might be my ill-advised idea that I do not consider an art song or operatic area sung with a true child's voice being at grade 7 standard vocally - but they have to sing it that way for their voices' sake, which is exactly the problem we are facing with this age group.
If they DON'T sing it with a child's voice however, their safe vocal development is at serious stake, so it is a bit of a catch 22-situation.

I usually recommend that children at your daughter's age, no matter how keen they are, should just have fun with their singing - there is no race to be won, and no need for premature vocal tricks. Voices that age just need to stay free from unhealthy vocal habits - that's our job, together with musical development. Singers have so much time, much more than any other instrumentalists. They also have the added problem that they can't replace a broken string (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Again, I really don't mean to rub anyone up the wrong way, it is just that from a singing teacher's point of view, I felt I had to say something about it.

I studied classical singing and sang in quite a few productions - and I had my first formal singing lesson a year before I applied for Cons - it didn't hold me back one bit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Again: If all these things have been taken into consideration, all the better. They are so important however, that's why I felt I had to mention it. It might be a good read for other people in doubt as well. There might also be other opinions out there, so feel free to shoot me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Sunrise]

Firstly THANK YOU. These are all questions I had/researched to work out what to ask when her teacher approached us after hearing her sing. I sit in on most of her lessons, and pay close attention.

Yes, she is #ahem# sprouting, so I will be paying even closer attention, thanks to your comments.
Her coach is emphatic that she needs to sing in her own voice, if she pushes into "Opera voice " being silly she gets stopped. He specifically doesn't want her sounding like she's 25.

He is working on technique mainly with her....breathing - keeping her ribs open.....moving smoothly from chest to passagio to head voice....how to cover and sing gently.....how to get the higher notes to resonate without forcing (mouth shape etc)....singing legato, staccato etc, diction, pronunciation so that the italian/german/french end up second nature to her.
She certainly does not "belt" - unlike many other young singers here doing more musical theatre. She has a very natural gentle vibrato. In fact one of my daughters friends has just started going to him and he made the comment that he can hear that her voice is not healthy and he is working to help her recover from that.

He also teaches me, so I know what he does differently. Pushes me way harder on the vocalisas, and higher too. Also asks me to sing with more intensity - he does not do this with her.

I understand completely what you mean about singing Grade 7 pieces but not vocally/stylistically at Grade 7. That is where she is.....she is singing Vedrai Carino which is on the Grade 7 syllabus in a recital next week, note perfect, with expression and correct breathing, but in a voice that roughly matches her age. That was my bad explanation and apologies for that.

I am actually really interested in this....is there a book/internet resource you can send me to for the definitions of cry/sob/belt/opera etc as I've never heard them used until I joined this forum. I am interested for myself as well as DD.

Thanks again

Dawn

Thanks again - I hope from what I have said her teacher is as good as he seems. She adores her lessons with him (as do I) and the hour just flies by.

[Digby]

Hi Dugazon,

first can I thank you for the detailed post, as a non trained singer it is all new to me and I found it very interesting.

I have mentioned my daughter on here a couple of times, she is currently having 15 minutes singing lesson a week age 13, she is working on grade 5 songs and her teacher has said that whilst she is quite capable of singing the songs she doesn't have the voice tone to do the exam. Which is fine by me as singing was only ever a fun extra but I think she may chose to do grade 8 at some point. The reason she's only having 15 mins is because it was a school paired lesson and the pairing was unsuitable.

Can you recommend any books that cover the progression of the mutation of the books. I co-run (as pianist) a choir with the music teacher at my younger daughters primary school, and whilst I always stop them if I feel what they are doing is unsuitable for their voice as dawn says when they're being silly and trying operatic voices - I don't know why or what damage it can do, it's just instinct, I would really like to understand it more.

Many thanks

Digby

[Dugazon]

Thanks guys, relieved that it didn't go down the wrong way, because it is quite a sensitive subject. Also relieved to hear that your teacher, Dawn, obviously is aware of these things. Some people can take it the wrong way and think this has something to do with pigeonholing classical or contemporary teachers - it doesn't, it really has nothing to do with vocal style at all. There are good ones and bad ones on every side (and also in the middle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

If anyone is interested on reading material or workshops:

As for children's and adolescent voices, I cannot recommend the works of Deirdre Trundle and Jenevora Williams enough. They both hold courses regularly, highly recommended.

Problem with Deirdre's books is: She published them though Voicesource, and rosfrog and I (and a few others) can tell you that it is not a safe bet to place an order with them, so her works are sadly very hard to get hold of at the moment.

Jenevora on the other hand has quite a few of her articles on her webpage: http://www.jenevorawilliams.com/

As for all the Estill-speak (vocal set-ups, qualities): I am not an Estill teacher, but the work Jo Estill has done for vocal research cannot be spoken highly enough of. It is scientifically sound, easy to grasp once you get your basics straight, and, the most important thing: It doesn't judge style, so it can be applied to any musical style you want to go for. You might already find a lot about it if you browse through these Forums. As a read, I would recommend Gillyanne Kayes' "Singing and the actor", or a quick browse through the Vocal Process website to see what is available.

Having said that: It is not Estill alone who teaches good, reliable and scientifically sound technique. Many other teachers teach exactly the same things without ever mentioning any of these words, and theoretically, it doesn't matter how you name it if you know what you are doing. It would just be so nice if all singing teachers would start using the same vocabulary, so all types of misunderstandings would come to an end. Yes, I know, I am a dreamer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Sunrise]

I'm so glad to hear you think our teacher is Ok, DD would be VERY upset if she couldn't continue with him - we both get withdrawal symptoms when we don't have a lesson for whatever reason!!! He inspires her completely.

I will look up the Estill and the webpage. For My vocal health as well as DD's.

Thanks again for your information and concern!

Dawn

[flobiano]

Earlier does not always necessarily mean better in this case. Unlike with many other instruments, you can have a full professional career starting comparably late (even as late as 18 - female larynges and therefore voices develop until their mid-twenties, so you really have ample time).

I was lurking in the singing thread....

I recently got a news letter from my school alumni association talking about an old girl who is enjoying a lot of success as a mezzo soprano with English National Opera. She learned violin and piano at school but didn't take up singing till she was 19 and at university doing a science degree. She finished her degree and 2 years of a pHd before deciding to throw it all in and see if she could get into music college. She then went to the RNCM in her mid twenties and now is a professional singer, and with a science degree to fall back on if she needs it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry to but in, but thought it illustrated the point nicely! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[violincjj]

Really useful info, thanks!

[Sunrise]

I recently got a news letter from my school alumni association talking about an old girl who is enjoying a lot of success as a mezzo soprano with English National Opera. She learned violin and piano at school but didn't take up singing till she was 19 and at university doing a science degree. She finished her degree and 2 years of a pHd before deciding to throw it all in and see if she could get into music college. She then went to the RNCM in her mid twenties and now is a professional singer, and with a science degree to fall back on if she needs it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry to but in, but thought it illustrated the point nicely! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

Our teacher went to music college for the piano. When he was there they told him he needed a second instrument, but he didn't play anything else, opened his mouth to sing and his lecturers could not believe their luck!!!

[fsharpminor]

Wasn't also Ian Bostridge another late mover into professional singing ?

[Halka]

Ooh! I've just read through this and it's really interesting for me too. My 13 year old is taking grade 6 next week, and I'm certainly feeling anxious that she will be singing her A and B pieces in her natural, very nice, but still quite childish voice when something more operatic may be needed to get good marks..

Although she loves to sing, and will continue to sing in no less than 4 choirs, we recently decided she will stop singing lessons at the end of term to make more time for instrumental practice. Although it is somewhat sad that she is giving up lessons after several years with her present teacher, I have certainly reassured myself that should she wish to get more "serious" about singing later she will be able to return to it and will not be seriously disadvantaged by the break in lessons.

[Deborah]

Wasn't also Ian Bostridge another late mover into professional singing ?

Yes. He was a post-doctoral history fellow at Oxford (specialising in mediaeval witchcraft - yes, Witchcraft and its Transformations c1650 - c1750 was written by the same Ian Bostridge who performed Schwannengesang at the Wigmore Hall last month) before giving up academia for music, but had sung on a non-professional level beforehand.

[Sunrise]

I would like to put this on, this is Kate (11), the initial subject of this thread singing Vedrai Carino last night....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ5ZfgDGbAE

Just thought you might like to see!

Dawn

[Dugazon]

Hi Dawn,

since yesterday, I thought a lot about how to write what I feel I absolutely need to write.

First of all: I am writing these few words openly for the mere reason that I don't want anyone to think that most singing teachers with experience in training children would be very happy about what they hear (I had a listen to quite a few of your videos):

I am a bit worried, and I might need to readjust what I wrote earlier about your daughter's teacher knowing how to train a child's voice.

If you would like to hear more, I will write more, it is up to you though if you would rather have an open discussion here (other teachers might feel about this differently or have different input!) or prefer to do this via PM.

[Sunrise]

Hi Dawn,

since yesterday, I thought a lot about how to write what I feel I absolutely need to write.

First of all: I am writing these few words openly for the mere reason that I don't want anyone to think that most singing teachers with experience in training children would be very happy about what they hear (I had a listen to quite a few of your videos):

I am a bit worried, and I might need to readjust what I wrote earlier about your daughter's teacher knowing how to train a child's voice.

If you would like to hear more, I will write more, it is up to you though if you would rather have an open discussion here (other teachers might feel about this differently or have different input!) or prefer to do this via PM.

Thanks - I've pm'd you

[AnnC]

I don't want anyone to think that most singing teachers with experience in training children would be very happy about what they hear (I had a listen to quite a few of your videos):

I have to agree, sorry. But do take Dugazon's advice - she knows what she's talking about.
All the best.

Ann