Learning Dipabrsm And Lrsm Pieces For Piano, I'd like some advice please! Options

[kpatb]

Im currently learning a few pieces (some of which happen to be on the LRSM and DipABRSM repetoire lists for piano)

Here are the pieces:
Liszt - Sonetto 123 del Petrarca
Brahms B minor Rhapsody
Bach's Fantasie in C minor

Now the Brahms is very challenging in technique and stamina...
Does anyone have any advice as how I should go about learning these pieces initially? And possibly any technique-improving exercises? I would like to learn the pieces well, but they seem quite a mountain to tackle to begin with (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Thank you!

[fsharpminor]

I'm not going to be much help here except to say that after I had done ALCM way back in 1963, I spent quite some time trying to play the B Minor Rhapsody Op79 No1, its certainly far more satisfying and more difficult than its partner in G Minor (often seen on all the boards Dip Assoc type syllabi) Here I am 47 years later and I still havent mastered it, though I play it through just for my own fun (if you could call it that!).
Much of its OK, its just those parts where your arms fly all over, and trying to hit accurate notes, whether youve come downward or up. The middle section in B is delightful, and a lovely contrast to the fireworks before, before they start again. Provided you are fairly tall I have found it useful to perhaps sit on the stool and inch or two further back than you normally do. All I can say is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/goodLuck.gif)
Regret I dont play the Bach and Liszt mentioned in your post

[kpatb]

I'm not going to be much help here except to say that after I had done ALCM way back in 1963, I spent quite some time trying to play the B Minor Rhapsody Op79 No1, its certainly far more satisfying and more difficult than its partner in G Minor (often seen on all the boards Dip Assoc type syllabi) Here I am 47 years later and I still havent mastered it, though I play it through just for my own fun (if you could call it that!).
Much of its OK, its just those parts where your arms fly all over, and trying to hit accurate notes, whether youve come downward or up. The middle section in B is delightful, and a lovely contrast to the fireworks before, before they start again. Provided you are fairly tall I have found it useful to perhaps sit on the stool and inch or two further back than you normally do. All I can say is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/goodLuck.gif)
Regret I dont play the Bach and Liszt mentioned in your post

Thank you very much! Ill consider all that you have said!
I finished my grade 8 over a year ago, so until recently, I've just been learning slightly tougher pieces for my own pleasure.
But now I'm practicing seriously for competitions, and I'm just not sure how to begin tackling the pieces. I think learning them well initially is so important - it saves a lot of work in the later parts when I begin looking at smaller detail (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But thank you for your help!

[fsharpminor]

I'm not going to be much help here except to say that after I had done ALCM way back in 1963, I spent quite some time trying to play the B Minor Rhapsody Op79 No1, its certainly far more satisfying and more difficult than its partner in G Minor (often seen on all the boards Dip Assoc type syllabi) Here I am 47 years later and I still havent mastered it, though I play it through just for my own fun (if you could call it that!).
Much of its OK, its just those parts where your arms fly all over, and trying to hit accurate notes, whether youve come downward or up. The middle section in B is delightful, and a lovely contrast to the fireworks before, before they start again. Provided you are fairly tall I have found it useful to perhaps sit on the stool and inch or two further back than you normally do. All I can say is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/goodLuck.gif)
Regret I dont play the Bach and Liszt mentioned in your post

Thank you very much! Ill consider all that you have said!
I finished my grade 8 over a year ago, so until recently, I've just been learning slightly tougher pieces for my own pleasure.
But now I'm practicing seriously for competitions, and I'm just not sure how to begin tackling the pieces. I think learning them well initially is so important - it saves a lot of work in the later parts when I begin looking at smaller detail (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But thank you for your help!

If you are doing competitions, I am on the music committee of the Wirral Festival which takes place in March.
There are piano classes right from youngsters to Open adult classes (eg Romatic composer class with free choice, Sonata class with free choice etc). The meeting to choose set pieces for the 'fixed classes' is actually tonight , but the syllabus wont be out for a while. Stephen Houghs name appears on many of the trophies !

[mel2]

Your teacher is your best guide with things like this but sometimes you just have to try things for size.

I worked for ages on the Brahms piece and absolutely love it but regretfully gave up on it as an exam piece because I couldn't manage the large stretches in the opening section. No matter how I pedalled there was a glottal stop - don't quite know how else to describe it.

It's worth combing the libraries and the internet for helpful articles on how to tackle various works. I was tidying my music shelves yesterday and came across a print out I had made taking you through a piece of Brahms, but I have a feeling it was for an opus 76 Kavierstuck - not much help to you.

Since my last attempt at Opus 79 I have bought a new piano, better than my dear old digital so might have another go with the aid of its superior sonority. I presume you have a decent instrument.

I know others on here have worked on the Petrarch sonnet so I'll leave you in their hands, because I've not done that one.

[denmark77]

I too have attempted the Brahms Rhapsody in B minor, without much succes...it's technical difficulties really pose a challenge beyond my abilities, but the middle section does tug at the heart strings in such a tender way, as f#m pointed out.

The Bach Fantasia is a great piece, and I enjoy it a lot. I always try to imagine it's an orchestral work, a concerto grosso maybe, and the various sections need to each have their own character - from the forte opening descending arpeggios (think 'ripieno', or 'tutti' especially for those big cadence chords) changing to perhaps piano to suggest there are two or three solo instruments ('concertanti' or 'soloists') when the texture reduces to only two or three parts, in the sections involving chromatic scales in imitation. The hand crossings need to be well balanced too, so I had to decide carefully which hand carries the main melody and emphasise it slightly.

Good luck with the exploring new repertoire, and enjoy it, but don't focus too much on getting a 'complete' diploma programme finalised at this stage, as it's a long process and there's much to explore first.

denmark

[Robodoc]

I play the Liszt Petrarch Sonnet 123. I learned it by breaking it down into sections and then learning the sections until I had the notes right (hands separate, hands together, slower then faster, from memory, etc.). Once I had the notes right and up to speed, I could start the real work which is to make it sound like music, that is to say like the wonderfully expressive evocation of love that it can be, with pedalling, articulation, phrasing, voicing, rubato and dynamics all just so - every note a drop of gold, as my teacher so eloquently puts it: Getting the notes right took about 4 months. Getting the music right has taken me about 18 months . . . so far.

[mel2]

I worked for ages on the Brahms piece and absolutely love it but regretfully gave up on it as an exam piece because I couldn't manage the large stretches in the opening section. No matter how I pedalled there was a glottal stop - don't quite know how else to describe it.

Apologies for quoting myself; someone said somewhere that it was a sure sign of madness (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

However, I think the large stretches I couldn't do were, in fact, the opus 76 because I had alook at the opus 79 last night and it's not the one I remember (but I still love it).

Hope you find a way into the pieces you want to play. So much music, so little time.

[Frederic Chopin]

Im currently learning a few pieces (some of which happen to be on the LRSM and DipABRSM repetoire lists for piano)

Here are the pieces:
Liszt - Sonetto 123 del Petrarca
Brahms B minor Rhapsody
Bach's Fantasie in C minor

Now the Brahms is very challenging in technique and stamina...
Does anyone have any advice as how I should go about learning these pieces initially? And possibly any technique-improving exercises? I would like to learn the pieces well, but they seem quite a mountain to tackle to begin with (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Thank you!

The Brahms is a beautiful piece. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

Just be assured that many sections repeat and so it is not as difficult as it seems. Make sure that you have full access to the keyboard, as advised by fsharpminor. When practising, play the notes/chords with a full tone and confidently and familiarise yourself with the hand position required to play the chords accurately when in tempo. A detailed thought to fingering and fingerwork will help tremendously with the faster twiddly bits before the chords so that they don't end up a blur. Most importantly, don't get too bogged down with the technical aspects but remember the phrases, the longer line, direction, dynamics and character of the piece. I had a wonderful time learning it ages ago.

*Going to dig the piece up now from under the cobwebs!*

[kpatb]

Your teacher is your best guide with things like this but sometimes you just have to try things for size.
...

Since my last attempt at Opus 79 I have bought a new piano, better than my dear old digital so might have another go with the aid of its superior sonority. I presume you have a decent instrument.

Unfortunately my teacher is away on her summer vacation! So I'm trying to work it out for myself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif).
I think I'm fine with my yamaha clavinova (Cringe. I know, but it gets the job done, and it's much better than having a piano in a humid, middle eastern climate) But thanks so much!

The Bach Fantasia is a great piece, and I enjoy it a lot. I always try to imagine it's an orchestral work, a concerto grosso maybe, and the various sections need to each have their own character - from the forte opening descending arpeggios (think 'ripieno', or 'tutti' especially for those big cadence chords) changing to perhaps piano to suggest there are two or three solo instruments ('concertanti' or 'soloists') when the texture reduces to only two or three parts, in the sections involving chromatic scales in imitation. The hand crossings need to be well balanced too, so I had to decide carefully which hand carries the main melody and emphasise it slightly.
Good luck with the exploring new repertoire, and enjoy it, but don't focus too much on getting a 'complete' diploma programme finalised at this stage, as it's a long process and there's much to explore first.

At the moment I'm not attempting to do the diploma, I'm purely playing for my own pleasure (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And because I love playing the piano... finally all those years of practice have paid off!
My worry with the Bach is that there are so many different interpretations (as with all pieces ofcourse) BUT with Bach, everyone has their own idea of what is "right" and what is "Wrong".
What an interesting interpretation, I never thought of the Fantasia in that way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's very interesting! I shall try to imagine that the next time I practice.

I play the Liszt Petrarch Sonnet 123. I learned it by breaking it down into sections and then learning the sections until I had the notes right (hands separate, hands together, slower then faster, from memory, etc.). Once I had the notes right and up to speed, I could start the real work which is to make it sound like music, that is to say like the wonderfully expressive evocation of love that it can be, with pedalling, articulation, phrasing, voicing, rubato and dynamics all just so - every note a drop of gold, as my teacher so eloquently puts it: Getting the notes right took about 4 months. Getting the music right has taken me about 18 months . . . so far.

As of now, my main issue is the darn chords -.-
Because I am having an issue playing the chords in a balanced manner, and playing them all at once. My big chords all end up sounding like ripples :/
And yes, the Liszt will take forever to get correct in terms of interpretation. Some people spend a whole lifetime getting it correct.
Good luck!

The Brahms is a beautiful piece. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)
Just be assured that many sections repeat and so it is not as difficult as it seems. Make sure that you have full access to the keyboard, as advised by fsharpminor. When practising, play the notes/chords with a full tone and confidently and familiarise yourself with the hand position required to play the chords accurately when in tempo. A detailed thought to fingering and fingerwork will help tremendously with the faster twiddly bits before the chords so that they don't end up a blur. Most importantly, don't get too bogged down with the technical aspects but remember the phrases, the longer line, direction, dynamics and character of the piece. I had a wonderful time learning it ages ago.
*Going to dig the piece up now from under the cobwebs!*

The Brahms is SO beautiful. When my teacher first played the piece to me, I was so thankful that my mother kept pushing me to continue with my piano lessons after a year or two of study (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Again, as with the Liszt, I'm having the (very basic) problem of getting the chords to play together -.-
And it's SO frustrating.
I looked through for all the repeats.. and I realised that at least a third of the piece is repeated (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So in terms of pages of music to learn, I only have 5 or 6 now, as opposed to 9 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Luckily for me, I also have a very nice edition with half decent fingering and pedal markings all the way through the piece, so I dont have to spend too long on working out fingering/pedalling by myself.


EVERYONE - ON THE BRAHMS: Just to know , what fingering did you use for the left hand and right hand twiddly triplet semiquavers followed by octaves?



Oh and what is everyone's thoughts on interpreting Bach on the piano?

Some people think you should stick to the period type performing - in which no pedal is used, no or little dynamic variations, and the pieces are played (in general) very fast.

Others feel that: since we are playing on a modern instrument, we should use the facilities available, and be able to incorporate dynamics and use the pedal occasionally.

What do you think?

[clavicembalo]

Oh and what is everyone's thoughts on interpreting Bach on the piano?

Some people think you should stick to the period type performing - in which no pedal is used, no or little dynamic variations, and the pieces are played (in general) very fast.

Others feel that: since we are playing on a modern instrument, we should use the facilities available, and be able to incorporate dynamics and use the pedal occasionally.
What do you think?

I played the Prelude & Fugue in D, from Bk2, for my DipABRSM yesterday, without any pedalling. I preferred it that way, in order to make more of the contrasting textures in that particular piece. I have a fair handspan, so where I could see a pedal applied here and there aiding someone with small hands, I didn't find it necessary.

However, I would side with your latter opinion with the emphasis on 'occasionally'. In the context of my recital, it was evident that we went from no pedal in the Bach, to being an absolute must, applied liberally (although judiciously) in Liszt and Debussy.

[Mad Tom]

Oh and what is everyone's thoughts on interpreting Bach on the piano?

Some people think you should stick to the period type performing - in which no pedal is used, no or little dynamic variations, and the pieces are played (in general) very fast.

Others feel that: since we are playing on a modern instrument, we should use the facilities available, and be able to incorporate dynamics and use the pedal occasionally.
What do you think?

I am always very wary of questions that use that weasel-word "should". At least when they are using it in a moralizing sense.

There is no answer.

There is no one-true-way to play Bach, whatever Wanda Landowska may have said. And what a boring world it would be if there were, and performing artists were interchangeable units, all trying to create the identical "perfect"rendition. Part of the joy of music is listening to different interpretations of the same music by different artists, and learning and enjoying something different about the music from each of them.

You don't even have to play it the same way every time yourself. If you play the same piece in 20 different concerts you can play it differently every time. So long as it engages your audience, and reveals something of the beauty and power of Bach's music it is fine with me. I have no time for the "Authenticity mafia"

But you are playing it for an exam. So the question is should you try to second guess what the examiner expects to hear? And then try to deliver it?

And there is a deeper question.

Is the exam testing that you have the technique to effectively realize in sound your own artistic vision? Or is it also attempting to make sure that you also stick closely to the approved conventions of interpretation (whatever they might be) and so preserve that tradition?

[kpatb]

I played the Prelude & Fugue in D, from Bk2, for my DipABRSM yesterday, without any pedalling. I preferred it that way, in order to make more of the contrasting textures in that particular piece. I have a fair handspan, so where I could see a pedal applied here and there aiding someone with small hands, I didn't find it necessary.

However, I would side with your latter opinion with the emphasis on 'occasionally'. In the context of my recital, it was evident that we went from no pedal in the Bach, to being an absolute must, applied liberally (although judiciously) in Liszt and Debussy.

Well I am only going to be playing in competitions in the near future. My other two pieces are very romantic, so I suppose having no (or only occasional) pedalling provides a reasonable contrast. Thank you for your input (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) !

So long as it engages your audience, and reveals something of the beauty and power of Bach's music it is fine with me. I have no time for the "Authenticity mafia"

But you are playing it for an exam. So the question is should you try to second guess what the examiner expects to hear? And then try to deliver it?

And there is a deeper question.

Is the exam testing that you have the technique to effectively realize in sound your own artistic vision? Or is it also attempting to make sure that you also stick closely to the approved conventions of interpretation (whatever they might be) and so preserve that tradition?

"Authenticity Mafia".. I like it.
But you know, my idea would to keep the performance very.. "clean" in a sense, with only the occasional use of pedal, and dynamic shading, but that's only my humble opinion.
I'm worried that the judges (and examiners) will completely disagree with my interpretation :/
But there are so many different ways in which people interpret him! So I'm hoping they will be a little more lenient with the interpretation criteria.

Thank you both!