Terrible Brain Frustration Op9 No2, one bar problem ! Options

[Martin.Walters]

Hi people.

I have been learning Chopins 09no2 for quite sometime.
I have decided to work at the hard parts and having a frustrating moment.

It is located a couple of bars after the 1st demi-semi-quaver run.
So the time is 12/8 and the left hand keeps a consistent rhythm. Now there are 4 notes in the right hand that need to be played into 3/8 while playing 3 notes in the left hand.

How do I go about the process of learning this sort of thing?

[Mad Tom]

Isolate it. Learn to play 4 v 3 rhythms in every possible way. 4 in the LH vs 3 in the RH and vice versa. Playing as fingered sequences (scale or arpeggio like). Playing in chords. Play slowly working out exact note lengths by finding the common denominator (12!). Play at normal speed - first the 4s then the threes, then just throw them together until they go. Look at Brahms's Ubungen exercises. Just work at it from every angle. Be prepared for it to take months before you are comfortable with 4v3 patterns. [But when you are ...start on 3 v 5, 4 v 5, ... etc.]

[Ribble]

My drummer friends always recommended that you do it by hitting things first. The neanderthals.

Write it down; the lowest common denominator is 12 so if you divide that 12 into 3 and 4, you can figure out your rhythm. Count the 12 and tap the Right Hand on 1, 4, 7 and 10 and the Left hand on 1, 5 and 9 and that should give you your 4 against 3!!


Put it together, then swap hands, increase the tempo, try it on the piano with notes, with chords, then try your Chopin!

[Mini_mo]

My drummer friends always recommended that you do it by hitting things first. The neanderthals.

Write it down; the lowest common denominator is 12 so if you divide that 12 into 3 and 4, you can figure out your rhythm. Count the 12 and tap the Right Hand on 1, 4, 7 and 10 and the Left hand on 1, 5 and 9 and that should give you your 4 against 3!!


Put it together, then swap hands, increase the tempo, try it on the piano with notes, with chords, then try your Chopin!

Fantastic! And for the less numerically inclined the spoken version.

for 4v3:

Not.....ve.......di......cult (RH)
Not........ry........fi........ (LH)

The thread below has loads of tips (which is where I pinched this from (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) )

Rhythm thread

[jod]

My drummer friends always recommended that you do it by hitting things first. The neanderthals.

Write it down; the lowest common denominator is 12 so if you divide that 12 into 3 and 4, you can figure out your rhythm. Count the 12 and tap the Right Hand on 1, 4, 7 and 10 and the Left hand on 1, 5 and 9 and that should give you your 4 against 3!!


Put it together, then swap hands, increase the tempo, try it on the piano with notes, with chords, then try your Chopin!

Fantastic! And for the less numerically inclined the spoken version.

for 4v3:

Not.....ve.......di......cult (RH)
Not........ry........fi........ (LH)

The thread below has loads of tips (which is where I pinched this from (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) )

Rhythm thread

They are brilliant Mini_mo I've used things like that before and they tend to work. Of course if you can completely separate left and right hand and play them without any aide-memoir then that is preferable, but we all know how difficult it is to trace squares and triangles on paper at the same time

[wurlitzer]

My drummer friends always recommended that you do it by hitting things first. The neanderthals.

Write it down; the lowest common denominator is 12 so if you divide that 12 into 3 and 4, you can figure out your rhythm. Count the 12 and tap the Right Hand on 1, 4, 7 and 10 and the Left hand on 1, 5 and 9 and that should give you your 4 against 3!!


Put it together, then swap hands, increase the tempo, try it on the piano with notes, with chords, then try your Chopin!

Fantastic! And for the less numerically inclined the spoken version.

for 4v3:

Not.....ve.......di......cult (RH)
Not........ry........fi........ (LH)

The thread below has loads of tips (which is where I pinched this from (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) )

Rhythm thread

I'm glad to see that other people have remembered my suggestion on that other topic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Yes, I can't really add any more to what has already been said.
A good piece to play which really improves 3v4 is Chopins first etude from "Trois Nouvelles Etudes" in F minor.
Not only does it develop this technique brilliantly, it is also a wonderful piece!

[Mad Tom]

Yes ... those word patterns are also helpful. The one I was first taught for 4 v 3 was "What disgusting weather"

but we all know how difficult it is to trace squares and triangles on paper at the same time

I didn't ... but I do now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[kingsley13]

My drummer friends always recommended that you do it by hitting things first. The neanderthals.

Write it down; the lowest common denominator is 12 so if you divide that 12 into 3 and 4, you can figure out your rhythm. Count the 12 and tap the Right Hand on 1, 4, 7 and 10 and the Left hand on 1, 5 and 9 and that should give you your 4 against 3!!


Put it together, then swap hands, increase the tempo, try it on the piano with notes, with chords, then try your Chopin!

I do this for fun when I get bored at school! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[Martin.Walters]

Thanks for the advice, I think I have it just about.

I do have another question. After listening to the piece several times, it appears that people add a considerable rit when playing the demi-semi-quavers. I do not see this in this written in SCHIRMERS library. opinions ?

[Mad Tom]

Thanks for the advice, I think I have it just about.

I do have another question. After listening to the piece several times, it appears that people add a considerable rit when playing the demi-semi-quavers. I do not see this in this written in SCHIRMERS library. opinions ?

They are cheating!