A shortened version of the Forums Rules is given below. The full version can be found here.
By maintaining a user account and by posting to these forums, you hereby agree to abide by these rules.
FORUMS RULES - A SNAPSHOT
- Stay safe - protect your privacy and respect the privacy of others
- No abusive, offensive or aggressive postings
- No insults or personal attacks
- No foul language
- No trolling
- No inappropriate or illegal material
- No advertising (including "For Sale" or "Wanted" adverts)
- No crossposting
- No forum spamming
- No defamatory comments
- Avoid using jargon, abbreviations or "text talk"
| Henry Fagg |
Nov 5 2010, 04:01 PM
Post
#1
|
|
Newbie ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 25-May 10 Member No.: 103845 |
Keeping Children Safe in Music is a joint initiative between the MU, the NSPCC, Youth Music, and the ABRSM.
The MU now has 5 videos up on their Youtube site to help music teachers to 'gain a better understanding of their child protection responsibilities and avoid situations that could lead to accusations of misconduct'. Of course the aims are laudable, but I'm not convinced by these videos. In particular, the third video entitled 'Inappropriate Demonstration' depicts a grossly caricatured version of teacher-pupil contact, and contains the statement "It isn't necessary to touch children in order to demonstrate. There's always a better way" (01:16). Personally, I do not believe this is correct, and it reminds me of the issues that Jennie Bristow and Frank Furedi were so helpful in unpacking in their book Licensed to Hug (now in its second edition). As an Alexander Technique teacher, I know that verbal instruction and demonstration is not enough to change habit patterns (we have a term for it: 'unreliable sensory appreciation'). In my profession, 'not touching' is simply not an option, and I'm sure that many music teachers feel the same. What does anyone else think about these videos (www.youtube.com/user/TheMusiciansUnion) and the above statement in particular?? |
![]() ![]() |
| morceau |
Nov 12 2010, 02:15 PM
Post
#2
|
|
Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 576 Joined: 17-September 09 From: Yorkshire Member No.: 75482 |
Just looked at the videos and found them silly and amaturish to say the least. I thought they were rather insulting to teachers' intelligence. Just looked at the videos and found them silly and amaturish to say the least. I thought they were rather insulting to teachers' intelligence. I would have to agree - the vids a more than a bit embarrassing..no self respecting teacher would manhandle pupils (or anyone!) in that way in today's informed politically correct educational climate. So I don't really get the point of these vids.....maybe they could be used as an education tool for trainee teachers with an IQ of about 3 who are thinking of going into the teaching profession ...not! .....(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) I've just watched the videos and totally agree with the above. I'm not in the habit of picking things to bits just for the sake of it, and I know that these sort of training videos can often be clunky, cliched and unconvincingly acted, but these ones are really just ludicrous. They are more like the kind of video I would expect to see used for pupils in order to encourage discussion about right and wrong ways to behave, not as training for professionals. |
| Organistin |
Nov 12 2010, 03:17 PM
Post
#3
|
|
Unregistered |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) I've just watched the videos and totally agree with the above. I'm not in the habit of picking things to bits just for the sake of it, and I know that these sort of training videos can often be clunky, cliched and unconvincingly acted, but these ones are really just ludicrous. They are more like the kind of video I would expect to see used for pupils in order to encourage discussion about right and wrong ways to behave, not as training for professionals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Patronizing and excruciatingly embarrassing to watch. Very poor quality for professional training. As for the video with the violinist. What on earth? The example where he held the boys shoulder and wrist was completely ludicrous. No teacher would do that. And as for the "after" example, where he was supposedly able to teach without touching. ... how on earth, in a real lesson situation, would the pupil know what he was going on about. In the video, as if by magic, the teacher demonstrates on his violin, says something about keeping your hand in the same position and hey presto, abracadabra, the boy manages to reproduce the correct hand position and plays the scale perfectly. Yeah right. I got the impression from the videos that they were making out that music teachers were particularly vulnerable to manhandling children. They may not have meant it, but this is how it came across. It got my back up from the beginning of the first video. Had it been a sensible series of videos showing how you could demonstrate techniques with MINIMAL touch then it might have been useful. Ditto if it had covered what was definitely inappropriate and what might be interpreted as inappropriate in a way that was not presumptive and insulting. Of course there have been cases where music teachers have acted inappropriately, just as there have been cases of classteachers, teaching assistants, priests, youth group leaders, relatives, neighbours etcetc. But as someone pointed out earlier, these were not cases where a piano teacher or violin teacher or whichever instrument (I say piano and violin because that is all I know about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) ) has gently moved fingers, or arms or hands into the correct position. I remember in my early 20s being shocked to find out that the a conductor I had once known was prosecuted for physically molesting some of his female singing and woodwind pupils. Without going in to details, what he had done was WAY beyond any kind of appropriate touch and he had made out to the pupils that it was completely necessary for them to progess. They had believed him at first but gradually realized that he should not have been doing it. A very clear cut case - not a case of lightly moving a finger or even gently adjusting posture. |
Henry Fagg "it Isn't Necessary To Touch Children In Order To Demonstrate Nov 5 2010, 04:01 PM
jod I teach singing and piano (in the main) and use a... Nov 5 2010, 04:47 PM
Yet another muso
I teach singing and piano (in the main) and use ... Nov 5 2010, 09:23 PM
Seer_Green
I don't think I'd want to go down the rou... Nov 5 2010, 10:04 PM
miffy I hate all this! :(
I don't manhandle my... Nov 5 2010, 05:03 PM
flutey1
I hate all this! :(
I don't manhandle m... Nov 16 2010, 03:28 PM
Seer_Green What is most important in all this is common sense... Nov 5 2010, 07:00 PM
Banjogirl It's all madness. I can't help touching ch... Nov 5 2010, 09:10 PM
neil.clarinet Interesting all videos are 2 mins 17 secs and cut ... Nov 5 2010, 10:25 PM
dolce@piano I touch my piano pupils all the time because I thi... Nov 6 2010, 08:24 AM
Clari Nicki1
I touch my piano pupils all the time because I th... Nov 6 2010, 08:53 AM
ChristopherO Child protection is of vital importance but I can... Nov 6 2010, 11:44 AM
ChristopherO I am not a teacher so I don't have to consider... Nov 6 2010, 08:44 AM
BadStrad But for my half pennyworth I am so disturbed by ... Nov 6 2010, 11:39 AM
Henry Fagg
[quote name='ChristopherO' post='1003141' date='N... Nov 8 2010, 12:47 PM
Aquarelle Warning: I rant!!!!
I have expres... Nov 8 2010, 01:39 PM
Mad Tom
Warning: I rant!!!!
I have expre... Nov 8 2010, 03:30 PM
artstar One of my piano students is very young, and I... Nov 9 2010, 10:58 AM
ExpressYourself Good point Aquarelle, dogs need protecting too... Nov 8 2010, 01:42 PM
chocolatedog I think it's gone all silly - what happens if ... Nov 8 2010, 03:17 PM
Misterioso
I think it's gone all silly - what happens if... Nov 16 2010, 10:57 AM
porilo I am a piano teacher and will occasionally touch p... Nov 8 2010, 09:28 PM
ChristopherO I have a confession. I hugged a child last week. I... Nov 9 2010, 02:10 PM
Seer_Green Part of the problem with all this (and it's no... Nov 9 2010, 03:06 PM
Clari Nicki1
Part of the problem with all this (and it's n... Nov 9 2010, 04:35 PM
Seer_Green Just seen this: http://www.abrsm.org/?page=newsArt... Nov 9 2010, 05:17 PM
Aquarelle Just looked at the videos and found them silly an... Nov 10 2010, 09:36 PM
baiba
Just looked at the videos and found them silly a... Nov 11 2010, 09:41 AM
lilly763 I'm not in Britain, but in the US the attitude... Nov 11 2010, 02:00 PM
Banjogirl A company called 'Educare' tells you an aw... Nov 11 2010, 02:23 PM
Henry Fagg [color=#000099]"When you're teaching inst... Nov 11 2010, 06:58 PM
pushpull
It isn't necessary to touch children in order... Nov 11 2010, 07:08 PM
Seer_Green
Were any instrumental teachers even consulted dur... Nov 11 2010, 08:21 PM
baiba
Were any instrumental teachers even consulted du... Nov 11 2010, 11:50 PM
baiba Also - if the authorities don't like the idea ... Nov 11 2010, 09:15 PM
pushpull
Obviously adult students are able to comprehend v... Nov 12 2010, 02:30 PM
TeacherNumberOne
:agree:
I've just watched the videos and t... Nov 12 2010, 04:13 PM
Mad Tom
What does anyone else think about these videos (w... Nov 12 2010, 04:38 PM
Seer_Green I suppose that at the heart of the matter, how man... Nov 14 2010, 09:47 AM
twinkle A very good point made about appropriate and inapp... Nov 17 2010, 08:18 AM
Seer_Green
I'm going to start a new thread for people to... Nov 17 2010, 09:53 AM
Henry Fagg
[quote name='twinkle' post='1006167' date='Nov 17... Jan 2 2011, 06:50 PM
ma non troppo I just want to say that I agree with many of the ... Nov 16 2010, 12:16 AM
maggiemay oh dear - now I've got to read the whole of th... Nov 17 2010, 09:43 AM
Dugazon I'll just say one thing, and I personally don... Nov 17 2010, 12:24 PM
Seer_Green I completely agree with everything you say, but I ... Nov 18 2010, 10:42 AM
Mad Tom
I completely agree with everything you say, but I... Nov 18 2010, 10:57 AM
Aquarelle
I completely agree with everything you say, but I... Nov 18 2010, 12:20 PM
Seer_Green
Sorry Seer Green!! I expect you will com... Nov 18 2010, 12:31 PM
Aquarelle
What would be the point in that?
[/quote][/quote]... Nov 18 2010, 09:25 PM
SueHM I've watched the videos now, and while I can s... Nov 18 2010, 12:41 PM
maggiemay
Personally, I don't make an issue of touching... Nov 18 2010, 12:49 PM
Czerny I'm afraid I haven't read through the enti... Nov 18 2010, 11:16 PM
Seer_Green
A reluctance to be touched by one's teacher d... Nov 18 2010, 11:25 PM
Dulciana
I'm afraid I haven't read through the ent... Nov 19 2010, 12:08 AM
kerioboe
There is another argument for avoiding touching p... Nov 19 2010, 07:38 AM
Maizie I think the point you make here is a good one but ... Nov 19 2010, 08:50 AM
Czerny
I think the point you make here is a good one but... Nov 19 2010, 10:14 AM

kerioboe
I'm a bit puzzled that you say this (i.e. you... Nov 19 2010, 10:26 AM

Czerny
I'm a bit puzzled that you say this (i.e. yo... Nov 19 2010, 10:52 AM
Seer_Green
I think the point you make here is a good one but... Nov 19 2010, 10:22 AM
pushpull
My oboe teacher touches me quite a lot and on occ... Nov 19 2010, 10:46 AM
Dugazon Moving away a bit from the child-specific problems... Nov 19 2010, 12:55 PM
pushpull
but it always takes two to tango.
Nice compariso... Nov 20 2010, 03:04 PM
rosflute I got an apology from 'Educare' the body w... Nov 20 2010, 09:22 AM
Aquarelle None the less it is very cultural.
Yesterday we ... Nov 21 2010, 03:02 PM
Dulciana I agreed with the sentiment in Czerny's first ... Nov 22 2010, 10:18 AM
Henry Fagg Josie Appleton of the Manifesto Club is now spread... Nov 23 2010, 06:42 PM
baiba It looks as if the majority of professional music ... Nov 26 2010, 06:55 AM
pushpull
It looks as if the majority of professional music... Nov 26 2010, 09:39 AM
maggiemay This is not quite the right thread for this - it p... Nov 26 2010, 08:58 AM
mel2
This is not quite the right thread for this - it ... Nov 26 2010, 09:15 AM
Dulciana
[quote name='maggiemay' post='1007966' date='Nov ... Nov 26 2010, 10:42 AM
Jane S I think I can feel a change in my T&Cs. It is... Jan 2 2011, 07:05 PM
Fran*Piano
Ho hum, I'll go back to the old fashioned me... Jan 2 2011, 07:39 PM
Seer_Green I hadn't thought about piano duets - it's ... Jan 2 2011, 07:19 PM
Czerny
I hadn't thought about piano duets - it's... Jan 2 2011, 07:44 PM
vectistim
I hadn't thought about piano duets - it's... Jan 2 2011, 09:32 PM
baiba
I hadn't thought about piano duets - it... Jan 3 2011, 10:54 AM
Jane S :P Don't take my post too seriously :blink: ... Jan 2 2011, 08:27 PM
Martin.Walters What an awkward situation our culture has put us i... Jan 2 2011, 09:05 PM
ffliwt Most ridiculous thing ever! This makes me so a... Jan 2 2011, 11:22 PM
Jane S I always agree to parents being present if they so... Jan 3 2011, 09:15 AM
Henry Fagg If you're a music teacher posting on this foru... Jan 7 2011, 05:39 PM
Henry Fagg Here's a pdf of the letter from Michael Gove, ... Jan 7 2011, 05:54 PM
jm-hamilton I hear on the 6 o'clock news that the Musician... Jan 7 2011, 06:36 PM
Fran*Piano
I hear on the 6 o'clock news that the Musicia... Jan 7 2011, 11:23 PM
Jane S Well, I'm gobsmacked! Only today I had a ... Jan 7 2011, 06:50 PM
Organistin
My first lesson in using a pedal involved my 70 ... Jan 8 2011, 05:28 AM
oldromola Mostly the parents of the children I teach are in ... Jan 7 2011, 09:56 PM
Seer_Green
Mostly the parents of the children I teach are in... Jan 7 2011, 11:15 PM
Jane S Glad to hear old techniques work! :D I... Jan 8 2011, 09:29 AM
Seer_Green On Ceefax last night, the BBC quoted the MU as say... Jan 8 2011, 12:43 PM
pushpull
On Ceefax last night, the BBC quoted the MU as sa... Jan 8 2011, 02:20 PM
Henry Fagg Not only that, but from a teaching point of view, ... Jan 8 2011, 01:41 PM
JudithJ Diane Widdison (Musicians Union) "We feel tha... Jan 8 2011, 01:48 PM
Seer_Green I am glad that I no longer belong to the MU, and s... Jan 8 2011, 01:43 PM
ffliwt I don't understand where all the hype with mus... Jan 8 2011, 01:48 PM![]() ![]() |
| Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 18th May 2013 - 02:44 PM |