"it Isn't Necessary To Touch Children In Order To Demonstrate Options

[Dugazon]

I'll just say one thing, and I personally don't feel the need to vent this to the ABRSM or even discuss it with them, as suggested in the other thread, because I don't need a nanny or some "higher power" to tell me what type of contact is deemed appropriate or not:

I have nothing to hide, I don't touch anyone, adult and child alike, in an inappropriate way, but I DO touch to correct things, and I'm NOT AFRAID to do so, because it's NORMAL!
I always explain why, I never just touch without asking (and this has nothing to do with the fact whether someone is an adult or a child, but with the fact that people are different).

I think people shouldn't talk so much about it and wonder what they are allowed to do or not, because it just adds to the feeling of "something's not quite right about it". Constantly overthinking the whole matter probably makes you feel awkward about it, and that's most certainly something students and children will pick up.

I come from a professional environment where touch/being tactile and opening yourself up is essential (and I quite firmly believe it is essential for every musician), and I don't see anything wrong with sensible physical contact in a teaching environment (apart from the obviously pervy kind of nature, but 99% of us are not like that, and I feel we are getting to the state where everyone's guilty until proven otherwise - I always tought it was supposed to be the other way round). It's not touch for the sake of touching - it has an educational purpose!

Just do! Don't take part in the scaremongering! If not so many people were prepared to do so, we wouldn't have the problem in the first place.

[Seer_Green]

I completely agree with everything you say, but I think in this instance, two things really annoyed me:

Firstly, I get fed up of logging into these forums to just find people hiding behind their anonimity moaning and groaning about things but not really being prepared to do anything about it (it's easy to talk the talk, but can you walk the walk).

Secondly, I have reservations about these videos in the message they give off, not least that they once again portray males in a negative light when it comes to child protection issues. I wouldn't be so bothered if they were part of a training course for professionals. The trouble is that here, the ABRSM is advertising them on its website for the general public to watch; they don't give the right impression about private teaching, and I think that the ABRSM is misguided in showing them to potential parents and pupils in this way.

[Mad Tom]

I completely agree with everything you say, but I think in this instance, two things really annoyed me:

Firstly, I get fed up of logging into these forums to just find people hiding behind their anonimity moaning and groaning about things but not really being prepared to do anything about it (it's easy to talk the talk, but can you walk the walk).

No-one is obliged to log in and read these forums, and users are quite entitled to whinge about things they do not have the time or energy to do something about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I guess you'll have to get used to being annoyed! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Secondly, I have reservations about these videos in the message they give off, not least that they once again portray males in a negative light when it comes to child protection issues. I wouldn't be so bothered if they were part of a training course for professionals. The trouble is that here, the ABRSM is advertising them on its website for the general public to watch; they don't give the right impression about private teaching, and I think that the ABRSM is misguided in showing them to potential parents and pupils in this way.

The ABRSM is misguided in many ways, but that does not stop us from taking its exams, accepting its accreditation, and using its forum (complete with automated "nanny-censor" and Kafkaesque moderation policy).

[Aquarelle]

I completely agree with everything you say, but I think in this instance, two things really annoyed me:

Firstly, I get fed up of logging into these forums to just find people hiding behind their anonimity moaning and groaning about things but not really being prepared to do anything about it (it's easy to talk the talk, but can you walk the walk).

But how do you know people are not doing anything about it? I haven't the foggiest idea of what many of my forum colleagues are doing but I'm quite sure a great many are doing whatever they feel able to do.

As for anonimity - I think it is only sensible to be careful and to remember that in discarding our own anonimity we may be jeopardising sonemone else's.

Can I just nit pick a bit while we are talking about being fed up? I get very fed up with people who use the expression "fed up of" when the correct preposition is "with".

Sorry Seer Green!! I expect you will come back and chastise me but I couldn't resist!

[Seer_Green]

Sorry Seer Green!! I expect you will come back and chastise me...

What would be the point in that?

[SueHM]

I've watched the videos now, and while I can see that they are a bit clunky and obviously staged, it actually doesn't really bother me. Surely the purpose of the videos is to simply raise awareness amongst instrumental teachers of the sort of situations that could lead them into trouble? As will all these tools, they need to used with a healthy dollop of common sense. The fact that they are so obviously 'scenarios' actually makes them easier to watch for me. Anyone who wants detailed training in child protection issues is clearly going to need much more than a few online videos, but as a brief introduction to the subject, they don't seem that bad.

Personally, I don't make an issue of touching or not touching children and adults who I teach - if touching them achieves something that words and demonstrations cannot, then I'll do it and I don't go out of my way to avoid touching. I detest the paranoia that goes on these days - it does nothing to protect children from the genuine threats that exist.

[maggiemay]

Personally, I don't make an issue of touching or not touching children and adults who I teach - if touching them achieves something that words and demonstrations cannot, then I'll do it and I don't go out of my way to avoid touching. I detest the paranoia that goes on these days - it does nothing to protect children from the genuine threats that exist.

hear hear

[Aquarelle]

Sorry Seer Green!! I expect you will come back and chastise me...

What would be the point in that?

Well, that sums it up. The point is, as they say here "point final."

[Czerny]

I'm afraid I haven't read through the entire thread, so I apologise if this point has already been made.

There is another argument for avoiding touching pupils, not because it is "inappropriate" or could be perceived as such, but simply because the pupil may not wish to be touched, in any way or in any circumstance. That must surely override any other consideration.

Whilst I don't disagree that touch can often be the easiest - and even best - way to achieve a particular stance / movement / hand position, etc., I still think that sensitivity to the feelings of the pupil concerned is a compelling argument for being very cautious about manipulating pupils, at least until a strong rapport has been established. And in my opinion asking a pupil whether they mind does not solve this problem; in fact I would go so far as to say it's almost irrelevant: how many pupils - even adults - would have the confidence to say they would prefer their teacher not to touch them? Far more likely that they would grin and bear it, and that the pupil-teacher relationship would be damaged as a result, albeit subtly.

A reluctance to be touched by one's teacher does not necessarily indicate brainwashing or indoctrination into thinking that there is potentially malicious intent in every form of physical contact. A pupil may be more than happy to be hugged (or whatever) by relatives, peers, family friends - but an instrumental teacher is none of these.

Obviously some people are more tactile than others, and there are different "degrees" of touch (a hand on someone's shoulder is clearly more intimate than touching a finger), but I think it is a mistake, and perhaps even slightly arrogant, to assume that, simply because we know our motivation for touching a pupil is purely professional and we feel outraged that society appears to have dictated that it is inherently wrong to touch a child, it is therefore inherently correct and in their best interests.

As I said, I haven't read the whole thread and am not intending or attempting to argue against any specific points anyone has made.

[Seer_Green]

A reluctance to be touched by one's teacher does not necessarily indicate brainwashing or an indoctrination into thinking that there is potentially malicious intent in every form of physical contact. A pupil may be more than happy to be hugged (or whatever) by relatives, peers, family friends - but an instrumental teacher is none of these.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) I've come across quite a few teachers over the years who seem to be engaged to do little other than provide children with hugs. This concerns me, not because of the current paranoia in society, but because to me it doesn't seem to be very professional. Ultimately, I'm a teacher; I'm not a childminder, babysitter, surrogate grandparent or anything else. I think there comes a point where the line has to be drawn. People who can afford to engage a teacher to do this seem to have more money than sense!

Personally, I'm not a particularly tactile person. I've had teachers in the past who've asked whether it's OK to touch in order to demonstrate, and generally I'm fine with that so long as I we've built up a trusting working relationship as would be the case in any other profession where this needs to be established. Personally, in my own teaching, I've never felt the need to touch to demonstrate anything. I think that on two or three occasions, I might have poked a finger into place with the rubber end of a pencil!

[Dulciana]

I'm afraid I haven't read through the entire thread, so I apologise if this point has already been made.

There is another argument for avoiding touching pupils, not because it is "inappropriate" or could be perceived as such, but simply because the pupil may not wish to be touched, in any way or in any circumstance. That must surely override any other consideration.

Whilst I don't disagree that touch can often be the easiest - and even best - way to achieve a particular stance / movement / hand position, etc., I still think that sensitivity to the feelings of the pupil concerned is a compelling argument for being very cautious about manipulating pupils, at least until a strong rapport has been established. And in my opinion asking a pupil whether they mind does not solve this problem; in fact I would go so far as to say it's almost irrelevant: how many pupils - even adults - would have the confidence to say they would prefer their teacher not to touch them? Far more likely that they would grin and bear it, and that the pupil-teacher relationship would be damaged as a result, albeit subtly.

A reluctance to be touched by one's teacher does not necessarily indicate brainwashing or indoctrination into thinking that there is potentially malicious intent in every form of physical contact. A pupil may be more than happy to be hugged (or whatever) by relatives, peers, family friends - but an instrumental teacher is none of these.

Obviously some people are more tactile than others, and there are different "degrees" of touch (a hand on someone's shoulder is clearly more intimate than touching a finger), but I think it is a mistake, and perhaps even slightly arrogant, to assume that, simply because we know our motivation for touching a pupil is purely professional and we feel outraged that society appears to have dictated that it is inherently wrong to touch a child, it is therefore inherently correct and in their best interests.

As I said, I haven't read the whole thread and am not intending or attempting to argue against any specific points anyone has made.

Good post!

And another reason for not pigeon-holing what is appropriate/permissable and what is not. It is wrong to say 'this is acceptable', no matter what it is, because it may not be to all. Outlining guidelines has dangers in both directions.

[Roseau]

There is another argument for avoiding touching pupils, not because it is "inappropriate" or could be perceived as such, but simply because the pupil may not wish to be touched, in any way or in any circumstance. That must surely override any other consideration.

Whilst I don't disagree that touch can often be the easiest - and even best - way to achieve a particular stance / movement / hand position, etc., I still think that sensitivity to the feelings of the pupil concerned is a compelling argument for being very cautious about manipulating pupils, at least until a strong rapport has been established. And in my opinion asking a pupil whether they mind does not solve this problem; in fact I would go so far as to say it's almost irrelevant: how many pupils - even adults - would have the confidence to say they would prefer their teacher not to touch them? Far more likely that they would grin and bear it, and that the pupil-teacher relationship would be damaged as a result, albeit subtly.

I think the point you make here is a good one but that it arises because of the odd situation which has developped in the UK regarding "appropriate" and "inappropriate" behaviour. As Aquarelle has already said, in France touching is normal - people greet each other with kisses on the cheeks and this is considered the normal way for a music teacher to greet their pupil. No one in France would ever dream of asking "do you mind if I touch you"? But at the same time, all the music teachers I have come into contact with have been sensitive to the way the pupil reacts.

My elder daughter dislikes being touched by anyone (even family). All her instrument teachers (four cello teachers, one trombone teacher) have noticed this and have commented on this to me saying that they try to avoid touching her but sometimes it is necessary and they hoped they weren't traumatising her. When I've talked about it with her she's said that actually she doesn't mind too much because they always apologise first so she feels they are respecting her. As you say, if they said "Do you mind if I touch you?" this would put her in a very awkward position as she is far too shy to say a verbal "no" to an adult in a position of authority and would feel she was being forced into something she didn't want.

My oboe teacher touches me quite a lot and on occasion gets me to touch him, so I can feel the way his abdominal muscles are working, for example. I have always found this helpful. He has never asked permission it just happens naturally as a logical developpment of what he's been saying. On one occasion, however, he wanted to touch my throat. I have always had a hang up about anyone touching my throat so I just said I couldn't bear anyone touching my throat and he didn't insist.

[Maizie]

I think the point you make here is a good one but that it arises because of the odd situation which has developped in the UK regarding "appropriate" and "inappropriate" behaviour.

In general terms, that may be right. In specific terms, i.e. me, I am an adult, I know the person touching me isn't being "inappropriate", but I'm not necessarily going to like it.

For example, my teacher will ask before moving my fingers when it is needed. That's fine - I always say yes. Plus, it's easy to see what he is going to be doing anyway.

But, I have had recent experience where someone I had only met recently repeatedly touched me on the shoulder/back and I didn't like it. Of course, I'm British, so I didn't say anything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But the point is that I am an adult - I know that the touch in question was absolutely fine and appropriate for the context that we were in. But I was still extremely uncomfortable with it, and made every effort not to flinch from it (because me being freaked out by it was probably nothing compared to the scene if I'd reacted!!)

So, I guess I am saying that even when you are old enough to understand that it's perfectly reasonable behaviour it doesn't mean you have to like it - and so it is nice to be asked or have the option. And for people to be aware that if someone says 'no I don't want to be touched' it's not necessarily because the touchee thinks that the toucher is being "inappropriate", it may just be because right now I don't want to be prodded and poked, thank you very much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I probably didn't feel the same way as a child, at least I don't recall feeling that way! But then again, when I was little the world seemed to be divided in to just two sets of people - children-I-know and adults-I-know, and all children were able to get on the laps of all adults as and when required (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Czerny]

I think the point you make here is a good one but that it arises because of the odd situation which has developped in the UK regarding "appropriate" and "inappropriate" behaviour. As Aquarelle has already said, in France touching is normal - people greet each other with kisses on the cheeks and this is considered the normal way for a music teacher to greet their pupil. No one in France would ever dream of asking "do you mind if I touch you"? But at the same time, all the music teachers I have come into contact with have been sensitive to the way the pupil reacts.

My elder daughter dislikes being touched by anyone (even family). All her instrument teachers (four cello teachers, one trombone teacher) have noticed this and have commented on this to me saying that they try to avoid touching her but sometimes it is necessary and they hoped they weren't traumatising her. When I've talked about it with her she's said that actually she doesn't mind too much because they always apologise first so she feels they are respecting her. As you say, if they said "Do you mind if I touch you?" this would put her in a very awkward position as she is far too shy to say a verbal "no" to an adult in a position of authority and would feel she was being forced into something she didn't want.

I'm a bit puzzled that you say this (i.e. your first paragraph - and I don't entirely disagree) but then give an example of exactly what I was trying to explain using your own daughter, who isn't even subject to the controversy about touch in the UK. Sorry if I've misunderstood.

[Seer_Green]

I think the point you make here is a good one but that it arises because of the odd situation which has developped in the UK regarding "appropriate" and "inappropriate" behaviour.

I'm not sure that's the case really; it's more a case of respecting other people and maintaining professional boundaries in a general sense. My personal view is that instrumental teachers showing affection (hugging etc.) for their pupils in a tactile sense is unprofessional. That's got nothing to do with the current situation in the UK regarding touch, but simply at a very general level of defining roles. None of my teachers ever hugged me as a child, and I wouldn't have wanted them to. This might be a historical thing, but I would have seen getting a hug from someone outside of the close family to be very strange.