"it Isn't Necessary To Touch Children In Order To Demonstrate Options

[Roseau]

I'm a bit puzzled that you say this (i.e. your first paragraph - and I don't entirely disagree) but then give an example of exactly what I was trying to explain using your own daughter, who isn't even subject to the controversy about touch in the UK. Sorry if I've misunderstood.

I was really just trying to say that I agree with you; that you don't need to ask if you can touch someone because you should be sensitive enough to the pupil you are dealing with to know how they are going to react and that you should not be putting children in the awkward situation of feeling they have to say "yes" when they really want to so "no."

[Arundodonuts]

My oboe teacher touches me quite a lot and on occasion gets me to touch him, so I can feel the way his abdominal muscles are working, for example. I have always found this helpful.

It seems normal to me too, but then my teacher invited me to touch her abdomen before touching mine and, since we were both grown-ups, it didn't seem an issue. What might seem slightly more bizarre to some is sticking little fingers in each others mouths to feel what an oboe embouchure is like. It seemed a perfectly logical way to explain something to me but I'm sure others might feel a bit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ill.gif) about it. Then again, oboists swap reeds with each other or test reeds in shops that others have been sucking on. Perhaps we have an immunity to both embarrassment and bugs.

[Czerny]

I'm a bit puzzled that you say this (i.e. your first paragraph - and I don't entirely disagree) but then give an example of exactly what I was trying to explain using your own daughter, who isn't even subject to the controversy about touch in the UK. Sorry if I've misunderstood.

I was really just trying to say that I agree with you; that you don't need to ask if you can touch someone because you should be sensitive enough to the pupil you are dealing with to know how they are going to react and that you should not be putting children in the awkward situation of feeling they have to say "yes" when they really want to so "no."

Oh, I see! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

[Dugazon]

Moving away a bit from the child-specific problems:

One main pillar of a good student-teacher relationship is trust - and trust works both ways.

It should go without saying that a good teacher will be sensitive enough to treat their students as individuals - that's why I earlier said that "to touch or not to touch" has not really anything to do with the fact whether we teach children or adults, but with the fact that different people have different boundaries.

Having said that: I trust my students to tell me if they feel uncomfortable about something, and I also trust them not to say Yes when they mean No. I encourage them consistenly to be honest about their feelings - they don't need to say things to be polite. Most of my students can do this, some easier than others, and some needed a bit of help with it, but I am quite happy to say that things like this also build confidence.

Whilst I trust my students to tell me if they are uncomfortable with something, and they can trust me in return to be able to read them to a certain extent, I think we have to keep one thing in our minds though:

We act in the student's best interest. So if there is not a basic amount of trust that we only ever use touch with an educational purpose, it's very hard to establish a good working relationship. And this doesn't only apply to touch, but to a whole array of "sensitivities" that one has sometimes simply to be prepared to let go to achieve results.

I'll give you one example - maybe singing is a bit different from certain instruments, but addressing certain muscular issues some people might find embarrassing is very often necessary:
Some students are so tense that they need to lie down first to get in touch with their natural breathing again. Oh the horror of lying on a couch or on the floor! Oh the embarrassment! You have to be able to switch your brains off occasionally as a singer, and that's the place to start.

Another one: Some people are literally clenching their buttocks, and if they don't release their pelvic floor, they will usually constrict on throat-level as well. You might find this odd, but all sphincter muscles of the body are more or less connected, and if you release one, you usually release the others. The same applies the other way round. Simple fight or flight response.

So, if I cannot address this as a teacher, and a student gets into hysterical fits if I just mention the words "pelvic floor", and consequently refuses to do exercises that will help (it goes without saying that there is no need for hands-on manipulation here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ), then they are not willing to keep their part of the bargain. It's sabotaging what the teacher is trying to suggest in their best interest. It's not weird, it doesn't have sexual undertones - it's simple anatomy. And it is sometimes necessary to get over yourself and just do. If people cannot do this, that's fine, and I would never force anyone, but then singing might not be the right thing for them.

If a student is not willing to trust the teacher, then no successful work is possible. I know that trust doesn't build over night, and it is easily destroyed by careless actions, but it always takes two to tango.

[rosflute]

I got an apology from 'Educare' the body who implement the Child Protection Policy training. And it just goes to show how stupid all this legislative thing is:
Educare's policy document 4 states "keeping to a minimum occasions when adults are alone and unobserved with children".
HOWEVER, on the test sheet to prove that I am 'safe' to be with children, the word 'unobserved' had been replaced by the word 'unsupervised' .
After I had contacted them to point out that these were entirely different meaning (i.e. "I observed a child drinking alcohol" is very different from "I supervised a child drinking alcohol"), I received a limp "oh, yes, sorry that is a mistake" from Educare (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) And these people are supplying [expensive] documents that could have an effect on people's careers.

I have noticed that children now are unused to teachers touching them and so that they are more likely to be shocked/upset if someone does. It's a sad state of affairs. (I've been teaching for 34 years)

[Arundodonuts]

but it always takes two to tango.

Nice comparison. I defy anyone to teach someone to tango without touching them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Aquarelle]

None the less it is very cultural.

Yesterday we had our Presentation of Certificates for the ABRSM exams.The pupils concerned were boys and girls aged from eight to sixteen. Every single pupil and several of their brothers and sisters plus a number of parents kissed me on both cheeks on arrival. The children all kissed me again when I presented each one with their certificate and most of the children were sent by their parents to kiss me goodbye at the end of the tea party.

The children and adults greeted each other in the same way - the kissing on both cheeks often invoilving a light touch of the hand on the shoulder and sometimes a quick hug. I cannot imagine this happening outside "un pays latin" as Monsieur Sarkozy described France on television this week.

Where I live there are simply no hang ups about touch. There would, of course be concern over forms of touch which were overtly or covertly s-e-x-ual but there is none of the northern European "be careful of my space" kind of reaction. People simply don't see things that way. A colleague's husband called into school one day last week and was greeted by the all female staff in the typical latin fashion. It isn't inappropriate here. His wife won't be sueing for divorce!!

On the other hand the "mind my space" attitude surfaces very quickly here once behind the wheel of a car!

[Dulciana]

I agreed with the sentiment in Czerny's first post on this subject, but also with kerioboe's, and I think both touch on the same thing - that if we are too spoon-fed with regard to how to behave we will loose the intuitive ability to judge for ourselves in relation to to the individual and the unique situation at hand. Even worse, the younger generation will put rules in front of common sense and may NEVER know how to approach this sort of issue without a manual. Computers and rule books are stripping us as a species of our social skills, and instead of addressing this we are compounding the problem by creating further flow charts and pigeon-holes!

[Henry Fagg]

Josie Appleton of the Manifesto Club is now spreading the word about this thread via her blog post entitled "How to Make the Violin More Difficult".

Here it is: http://www.manifestoclub.com/node/658

Josie also refers to what looks like an interesting book tackling this whole area called Don't Touch by Heather Piper (What an apposite title... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) )

[baiba]

It looks as if the majority of professional music teachers agree that there may have to be some physical contact with their pupils in order to teach effectively.

Check out this link
http://www.abrsm.org/regions/fileadmin/use...dProtection.pdf specifically page 4 of the Code of Practice.

I wonder what ABRSM thinks of us? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[maggiemay]

This is not quite the right thread for this - it pertains to discussions we were having about a year ago, so please excuse a slight OT.

However it's kind of related, and rather than search for a forgotten thread ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-...r-children.html (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hurrah.gif)

[mel2]

This is not quite the right thread for this - it pertains to discussions we were having about a year ago, so please excuse a slight OT.

However it's kind of related, and rather than search for a forgotten thread ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-...r-children.html (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hurrah.gif)

Good for the Flower Arrangers!

I'm now hatching a Cunning Plan; if I steadfastly refuse to be CRB checked next time, then the parish will HAVE to appoint another organist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (Or lose the revenue from upwards of 50 weddings a year)

Maybe we do need a mass revolt - it is all merely a back-covering exercise, after all.

[Arundodonuts]

It looks as if the majority of professional music teachers agree that there may have to be some physical contact with their pupils in order to teach effectively.

Check out this link
http://www.abrsm.org/regions/fileadmin/use...dProtection.pdf specifically page 4 of the Code of Practice.

I wonder what ABRSM thinks of us? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

It does refer to ABRSM staff and since none of them are involved in teaching, the "touching to demonstrate" issue doesn't come into it. They are probably right in their case to err on the safe side, though I still think it's sad we've become such a "hands off" society.

Maybe we do need a mass revolt

I'm sure we do. It's time we told the government (which ought to be renamed the "administration") what kind of society WE want rather than them telling us.

[Dulciana]

This is not quite the right thread for this - it pertains to discussions we were having about a year ago, so please excuse a slight OT.

However it's kind of related, and rather than search for a forgotten thread ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-...r-children.html (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hurrah.gif)

Good for the Flower Arrangers!

I'm now hatching a Cunning Plan; if I steadfastly refuse to be CRB checked next time, then the parish will HAVE to appoint another organist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (Or lose the revenue from upwards of 50 weddings a year)

Maybe we do need a mass revolt - it is all merely a back-covering exercise, after all.

All people need is a bandwagon. I know several people who have refused, and the matter has only been pushed so far, because of the sort of reason you have exemplified. Will they want an organist who can play well, or one who can't but is prepared to undergo a crb check? Will they be prepared to wait for every ah hoc wedding organist to do this before the wedding goes ahead? Can they be bothered with the admin? I reckon that if somebody is long-standing and has a clean slate, common sense will win the day.

[Henry Fagg]

I'm going to start a new thread for people to post their own views on APPROPRIATE physical contact, what to be wary of etc. Then perhaps they can be collated, and sent to the board? How do people feel about that?

I'm sorry, but I think that's a copout. It's easy to post messages on internet forums hiding behind one's anonymity. It's a very different thing to write a personal letter with your name attached. The Board are not going to take any notice of threads here. Everyday people post on these forums criticising some element of the Board's work, but I wonder when it comes to it, how many are prepared to stand up and be counted.

If people really hold the views posted here about these videos, then they should be making those clear to the Board, in writing, with their real name attached. This picks up on the point I made earlier about not standing up to these things. If we really believe in something, then as individuals, we should be wholeheartedly prepared to stand by those views and not air them anonymously. My view is that it's all very well moaning, grumbling and criticising, but that doesn't change anything. If people firmly believe something is wrong then they should be prepared to take up the fight!

I wonder how many though will really do this? I've written mine.

Followers of this thread may be interested/ gratified to know that the Telegraph and Daily Mail have both reported on this story, even quoting some forum users!:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educa...s-are-told.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13...ing-diktat.html