My Invention....., The new Grand Staff Options

[Gae]

For all those Piano/Harp/Organ players who have always struggled to read treble and bass clefs I have a simple, yet revolutionary idea.
The treble clef stays exactly the same with middle C in its normal position, one ledger line below the staff, but the left hand Bass Clef is written differently. Instead of having middle C on the first ledger line above the bass staff, you make it two ledger lines above instead...the first ledger line being used for the A, a third below middle C.
Written this way, all the Bass Clef notes now read the same as the treble Clef except they are obviously lower. F is now on the top line and E on the bottom. The position of each note is still recognisable by the Clef that it appears in, so there is no confusion there. Also, instead of there only being Middle C, you would now have both a Middle C and a Middle A...(notice, this is the same position as for high A and C above the treble clef too) This would help so many pupils who struggle to read two clefs, it would save time, reinforce note reading and allow more time for other important things outside of pure note reading. So many of my pupils, who have problems with bass reading, have told me in the past that they have to work out the treble clef note and then drop it down a line/space to work out the Bass note. How pointless and off-putting, in the study of music, is having to do that?
Having to learn to read two seperate Clefs causes confusion and difficulties for many pupils learning to read music. I suppose having a Grand Staff like this would make it too easy though in the eyes of a few!!
Can anyone see a problem with the reading of this and what does everyone think?

Gae

[hornplayer]

Whaaa???

Surely a student sturggling with treble clef to bass clef would just prefer to have the fact that middle C is one ledger line below the stave and that the same middle C is the first ledger line above bass clef pointed out to them?

The whole point of two different clefs is to not have too many ledger lines above or below the stave when distiguishing between pitches.

[cheeble]

The principle is good... but I think the practicality would be difficult. I think that it would be unfair on the pianists/organists/harpists who have already learnt to read both clefs...

While it would be an excellent shortcut and save a lot of time with learning initially, the student in question would eventually have to learn bass clef anyway for theory, or for the "old-fashioned" piano, organ or harp parts.

So... nice idea, but not one I'd vote for! :)

[Rhapsodin]

Can't see any problem but its what you get used to. The various different clef signs show exactly what's what and it won't take a reasonable musician too long to suss out what's happening. Presumably you just move the F clef up a line.

You may not find too many takers in the publishing biz tho. Perhaps to save people the struggle of learning new clefs we should revert to the great stave then there's only one stave.

[Gae]

?????
Some confusion here I think. This was supposed to be seen as an idea for how the Grand Staff may have been better designed. Of course I dont expect any/all music to be re-written using this idea, it was just a flippant idea/illustration of a new design for the Grand Staff.
Hornplayer, you are only talking about one note...middle C. I am concerned about the whole staff i.e. 5 lines and 4 spaces which adds up to a heck of a lot of more notes. Reading the bass notes in the treble clef would remain identical as the ledger lines would still be in the same position i.e. A would be 2 ledger lines below the treble and F would be 3...no change there at all. The change is purely in the left hand. O.K. so the left hand ledger line reading would be a bit higher, but would it be any harder as the notes would read the same as above the treble clef?

Gae

[sbhoa]

In reality what you are describing is 2 treble clefs with one being marked to be played 2 octaves lower..... <_<

With conventional G and F clefs you have a continuous ladder.
Those who are having problems with reading both are either playing the wrong instrument for them or just not bothering to learn thier notes.

[kenm]

QUOTE (Gae @ Jan 9 2005, 02:53 PM)

For all those Piano/Harp/Organ players who have always struggled to read treble and bass clefs I have a simple, yet revolutionary idea. The treble clef stays exactly the same with middle C in its normal position, one ledger line below the staff, but the left hand Bass Clef is written differently.  Instead of having middle C on the first ledger line above the bass staff, you make it two ledger lines above instead...the first ledger line being used for the A, a third below middle C.

This is not a new invention. Sub-bass clef was rare, but was used. I think we ought all to learn all the clefs. My new Grand Staff would be a combination of three: sub-bass (F on line 5), alto (C on line 3), and French violin (G on line 1). :P
The top line of each is the same note as the bottom line of the one above. Of course, this still only covers three and a half octaves, and 'cellos and flutes would still need leger lines. :(

[erard]

Or you could just teach students to read by interval and then they can read all the various F, G and C clefs and transpose! I agree- the mass of already published music would make it very hard to change the clefs in common use, however attractive designing new schemes may be.

[saxlover]

or we could just stick to the normal clefs we use and not get confused ;)

[Rhapsodin]

QUOTE (clarinetlover @ Jan 10 2005, 07:06 PM)

or we could just stick to the normal clefs we use and not get confused ;)

Ah, but that's because you're a girl and far too sensible. I've argued the same for composing using pencil and m/s paper.
But you see, in this Brave New World the idea is to complicate anything simple, so you can get more therapists and eggspurts out of it, more professionals. Sad to say it's usually males behind it. No sexist statement - just a fact.

My own view is that we should revert to the 11-line great stave and have just one stave per page, done like an old fashioned scroll. Some gadgetry would unwind one side and wind in the other as you played.
If we could replace existing notation by strictly proportional time-scale 'bars' it could be used vertically in some kind of electro-mechanical player device - useful for the sunny days to come when you really need to delegate your practice to someone/something else. Hahahahah!

:D

[saxlover]

QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Jan 10 2005, 07:33 PM)

QUOTE (clarinetlover @ Jan 10 2005, 07:06 PM) or we could just stick to the normal clefs we use and not get confused ;) Ah, but that's because you're a girl and far too sensible.

of course!

[sarah-flute]

QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Jan 10 2005, 07:33 PM)

QUOTE (clarinetlover @ Jan 10 2005, 07:06 PM) or we could just stick to the normal clefs we use and not get confused ;) Ah, but that's because you're a girl and far too sensible.

Rhaps... thanks for making me laugh. Again!

[DGA]

That means that you don't need a bass clef...Just add an 8 under the treble clef, like the tenors (or recorders? I forgot) do.

[zoda]

QUOTE (kenm @ Jan 10 2005, 05:41 PM)

This is not a new invention. Sub-bass clef was rare, but was used.

Roll over Norris McWhirter!

[Helen]

QUOTE (zoda @ Jan 11 2005, 10:42 AM)

Roll over Norris McWhirter!

Who? :blink: :unsure: