Violin Bow Hold, How to bend the thumb! Options

[marianne]

I wonder how you get youngsters to learn to bend their right thumb under the bow on the thumb leather? I seem to be able to get children to hold the bow correctly in every way apart from this. I remember myself having to go through a painful and frustrating period when I was in my teens 'relearning' to bend said thumb, and would far rather my lot started as they meant to go on! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[baiba]

Its just really a difficult thing to do and my daughter was advised to hold the bow with a straight thumb until her fingers strengthened, then she was showed how to hold the bow with a bent thumb but thumb on the outside of the bow.

Holding the thumb on the inside seemed hard for some kids I think and was not expected till about end of book one Suzuki, I think.

Its a balancing act holding the bow and they were also given little exercised for holding the bow above the head, round in circles, holding the other end of the bow with a bow hold. All the kids have different fingers and they were all different in the speed that they adapted to being able to hold the bow. Getting them to bend their fingers around the end of the bow (is it called a 'frog'?) was also a challenge sometimes.

I am not a violin teacher but I observed my daughter and the other children in their lessons.

Actual violin teachers may have differring and more useful and correct advice than me!

[dolcevita]

Not an answer but a related question:
Anyone got any good ideas for how to get beginner violinists to keep their left hand in the correct position rather than bringing the wrist up to make contact with the body of the violin, thereby moving the fingers from their proper positions. My son is learning and I'm constantly having to remind him of it. I thought someone might have a good analogy that children might respond to well. (With piano, for example, you can remind children to leave space for their pet hamster under their hand - not too high or he'll escape, not too low or you'll squash him! - to encourage a good hand position.)

[baiba]

Not an answer but a related question:
Anyone got any good ideas for how to get beginner violinists to keep their left hand in the correct position rather than bringing the wrist up to make contact with the body of the violin, thereby moving the fingers from their proper positions. My son is learning and I'm constantly having to remind him of it. I thought someone might have a good analogy that children might respond to well. (With piano, for example, you can remind children to leave space for their pet hamster under their hand - not too high or he'll escape, not too low or you'll squash him! - to encourage a good hand position.)

I'm not a violin teacher, but you could suggest he makes a "C" shape with his wrist each time and call it the "Cookie Monster shape" or "Make a gap for the small Dragon to pass through!"

Older ones may like something like "C for Curved!" (sorry not very imaginative) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/violin.gif)

Its a very common error that kids make, I saw lots of kids doing it.

Eventually they get it right!

[Little Elf]

I used to do this when I was little (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) My teacher used to call it "obstreperous thumb" even when we were at primary school... unfortunately this made us do it even more so we could get to hear the big long word. It took ages until she told us it meant disobedient or mischievous.

The only exercise I can remember for bow hold is to hold the bow normally and move your little finger up and down keeping it in contact with the bow - the bow should move with it and no help from other fingers should be needed. It should be easier to do this with a bent thumb and loose fingers than if you're grabbing on for dear life...

[KTViola]

Not an answer but a related question:
Anyone got any good ideas for how to get beginner violinists to keep their left hand in the correct position rather than bringing the wrist up to make contact with the body of the violin, thereby moving the fingers from their proper positions. My son is learning and I'm constantly having to remind him of it. I thought someone might have a good analogy that children might respond to well. (With piano, for example, you can remind children to leave space for their pet hamster under their hand - not too high or he'll escape, not too low or you'll squash him! - to encourage a good hand position.)

I get them to have a space for their imaginary pet mouse for this one too. Complete with mouse hole at base of thumb & 1st finger. If their hand position goes splat, they get mouse juice all down their arm.

Which is all fine, until you get an over imaginative pupil like one of mine, who squished his mouse, and when I expressed horror at this tragedy, answered brightly: "It's OK! I've got plenty more mice in my pocket".

As for the bent bow hold thumb - I wish I knew. I'm having a major blitz on this at the moment. Largely by nagging. I start them all off by making a circle with thumb & middle finger. Then we do 'good bunnies', 'bad foxes' (hard to do without demonstrating!) but it doesn't stick without nagging.

And on a related note - when I'm sorting out recalcitrant 6 year olds and their bow holds, I really do wonder how the 'don't touch pupils' brigade suggest I do this without any physical contact!

[tetrachord]

The Bow Hold Buddies bow accessory was designed by a violin teacher with decades of experience to solve this exact problem!
It has a thumb cup that directs the inside corner of the flexed thumb to the intersection of the frog and bowstick. Thumbs stay bent, and, because the pinky and index finger are also stabilized, the hand relaxes beautifully.
(IMG:http://www.things4strings.com/img/products/Violin-Bow-Hold-Accessory.jpg)

Feel I ought to just say that I bought a bow hold buddy to see if I could use it for teaching and I wasn't convinced with the bow hold that resulted - I might be wrong but I think it's like the Suzuki beginner's bow hold? Anyway, the bow hold that I got from using the device is not the same as my own bow hold so I would urge caution - a bow hold that works for one teacher or pupil won't necessarily work for eveyone.

[Misterioso]

I get them to have a space for their imaginary pet mouse for this one too. Complete with mouse hole at base of thumb & 1st finger. If their hand position goes splat, they get mouse juice all down their arm.

I do this too - but with the addition of giving the mouse the name of the child's best friend. I sometimes think, though, that having a real mouse (ie stuffed mouse) might help. Does anyone know where I could get one the right size? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[linda.ff]

Feel I ought to just say that I bought a bow hold buddy to see if I could use it for teaching and I wasn't convinced with the bow hold that resulted - I might be wrong but I think it's like the Suzuki beginner's bow hold? Anyway, the bow hold that I got from using the device is not the same as my own bow hold so I would urge caution - a bow hold that works for one teacher or pupil won't necessarily work for eveyone.

I couldn't see where the thumb was in that picture, but I remember my daughters, starting Suzuki, were first taught to put the thumb under the bottom of the frog, on the silver part, and it was one tiny "rite of passage" to put it at the intersection.

Actually, of course, the true Suzuki beginner is using a bit of dowel for a bow and and a "violin" made from a food box and a ruler, and playing posture games for a month before being allowed to have a violin to drop.

[tetrachord]

Feel I ought to just say that I bought a bow hold buddy to see if I could use it for teaching and I wasn't convinced with the bow hold that resulted - I might be wrong but I think it's like the Suzuki beginner's bow hold? Anyway, the bow hold that I got from using the device is not the same as my own bow hold so I would urge caution - a bow hold that works for one teacher or pupil won't necessarily work for eveyone.

I couldn't see where the thumb was in that picture, but I remember my daughters, starting Suzuki, were first taught to put the thumb under the bottom of the frog, on the silver part, and it was one tiny "rite of passage" to put it at the intersection.

Actually, of course, the true Suzuki beginner is using a bit of dowel for a bow and and a "violin" made from a food box and a ruler, and playing posture games for a month before being allowed to have a violin to drop.

The bow hold buddy does have the thumb on the stick rather than under the frog. The problem I had was that the bow hold was more behind and underneath the bow rather than round and above like I hold it (not sure I've described that too well). I do think a device like the bow hold buddy is a good idea - I'd just prefer one which creates the bow hold I use...

[miffy]

The Bow Hold Buddies bow accessory was designed by a violin teacher with decades of experience to solve this exact problem!
It has a thumb cup that directs the inside corner of the flexed thumb to the intersection of the frog and bowstick. Thumbs stay bent, and, because the pinky and index finger are also stabilized, the hand relaxes beautifully.
(IMG:http://www.things4strings.com/img/products/Violin-Bow-Hold-Accessory.jpg)

Not sure you're supposed to.advertise your own product on these forums, Ruth..

[marianne]

With reference to left hand, I always tell my children that there's little hedgehog sitting on the neck of the violin, and they're not to squish it, or get prickles in their hands! I just tell older beginners that I'm going to stick a drawing pin on the back of the neck!!! But I am only joking - honest! Also I say to young children that I might be able to slip a smartie through the crook of their thumb and first finger. Additionally I say to children then they are to imagine a little face painted on their finger nails, and they are to try to make the little faces look at them and not at the ceiling. Thumb pointing up to the ceiling (therefore not pointing at the scroll resulting in a squishy hand). As you can tell, I too have lots of work needed with my bunch to keep left hand position gorgeous!

As for thumb, I just keep nagging and haven't yet come up with any brilliant ideas, but thanks for all of yours!

[Minstrel]

Cat-toy mice!
When I bought my last ones from ASDA they came in packets of four for a pound, in different colours - cheap enough to lend out for a week, as well as amusing my soppy black evil-monster.

[linda.ff]

I remember now our Suzuki teacher sticking little corn-plasters to the place on the bow where the little fingertip needed to sit to keep the finger upright, so the fingertip had a little chair to sit in.

[violincjj]

Feel I ought to just say that I bought a bow hold buddy to see if I could use it for teaching and I wasn't convinced with the bow hold that resulted - I might be wrong but I think it's like the Suzuki beginner's bow hold? Anyway, the bow hold that I got from using the device is not the same as my own bow hold so I would urge caution - a bow hold that works for one teacher or pupil won't necessarily work for eveyone.

I couldn't see where the thumb was in that picture, but I remember my daughters, starting Suzuki, were first taught to put the thumb under the bottom of the frog, on the silver part, and it was one tiny "rite of passage" to put it at the intersection.

Actually, of course, the true Suzuki beginner is using a bit of dowel for a bow and and a "violin" made from a food box and a ruler, and playing posture games for a month before being allowed to have a violin to drop.

This isn't necessarily true for all Suzuki taught beginners, some start with the real violin right away.
One of my sons who did Suzuki had a box violin but the other two didn't.