The small-handed pianist support thread Options

[corenfa]

Small handed pianist reporting back.

Hand flexibility has improved and though my span has not, I find myself being able to play things that I had thought needed large hands. I've been working on Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 3 and the middle section has consecutive 6ths that go on for quite a few bars. I used not to be able to reach them but I've somehow found a way to make my fingers more bendy, so I can reach them now. Albeit slowly.

[jch48]

Small handed pianist reporting back.

Hand flexibility has improved and though my span has not, I find myself being able to play things that I had thought needed large hands. I've been working on Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 3 and the middle section has consecutive 6ths that go on for quite a few bars. I used not to be able to reach them but I've somehow found a way to make my fingers more bendy, so I can reach them now. Albeit slowly.

There must be many of us who know that section and have cursed it / given up. Glad you're making it work

[corenfa]

Hands still small. However, I notice that I have developed some ability to stretch my entire palm. Didn't think the stretch would come from there, thought it would be between fingers.

Have also realised one boon of being a small handed pianist - fingers do not get stuck between keys when playing fast things. Already it's a tight squeeze at speed so it'd be even harder if I had big fingers. Actually, I do remember somebody (with large hands) telling me this, but there's nothing like discovering it for yourself..

[Martin.Walters]

With a bit of warm up, I can reach a 9th Easily, ~

Which I believe is the same as Lang lang, however I have seen him stretch a 10th and his fingers right to the edge of the piano!! Whether or not I`ll be able to ever stretch a 10th more comfortable is yet to be seen.
I look forward to see if palm exercises help at all!


Heres a question, ~ If I lose weight, will the fat in the webbing also go and thus able to reduce webbing effects?

[corenfa]

No idea about losing weight!

It wasn't even palm exercises I was doing - just exercises turning thumb under a lot. I haven't been doing any special stretches.

[corenfa]

Hands not grown any bigger. However I can now play consecutive octaves slowly with no strain and I don't have to do it on the edge of the keys. Have been doing a lot of exercises that involve holding several notes and moving the other fingers, also playing things with arpeggiated chords. It's taken months but it's slowly getting easier.

I actually gave up piano after Grade 8 because I thought I'd never be able to play anything with consecutive octaves. I just hadn't been taught how.

[JamesK]

My problem, it is a couple of double jointed fingers - but mainly the 5th finger. So playing chromatic and scales octaves legato (4th and 5th finger alternating) is my problem at the moment.

[SingingPython]

Interesting discussion. I've not got small hands but they're not big either. I remember for a while as a child we did some stretching exercises - family tendency to greater than average webbing between fingers. My just 7 yr old son has really started getting into the piano (and super keen on learning organ when big enough). His hands look to be smaller than his sister's at the same age - not got proportionally long lean fingers. I've been wondering how much to explore starting some gentle hand stretches with him to help ensure he has the range when he needs it. [he's playing some grade 3 pieces as well as easier stuff now he's started with a proper teacher]

Any tips / advice on good exercises/ when not to do it/ how to avoid dangerous or risky ones would be appreciated!

[corenfa]

Interesting discussion. I've not got small hands but they're not big either. I remember for a while as a child we did some stretching exercises - family tendency to greater than average webbing between fingers. My just 7 yr old son has really started getting into the piano (and super keen on learning organ when big enough). His hands look to be smaller than his sister's at the same age - not got proportionally long lean fingers. I've been wondering how much to explore starting some gentle hand stretches with him to help ensure he has the range when he needs it. [he's playing some grade 3 pieces as well as easier stuff now he's started with a proper teacher]

Any tips / advice on good exercises/ when not to do it/ how to avoid dangerous or risky ones would be appreciated!

I find the Marguerite Long exercises (I've not gone beyond #3 and the book has hundreds!) to be of great help. HOWEVER, teacher says that they are only suitable for advanced students, so probably not suitable for your son. She has also said that she teaches children to play with a different hand position from the ones she teaches to adults, because of the growing hands and lack of strength. However I have never observed any of her child students play closely, so I've no idea what hand position this is.

I'm only comfortable telling you about my own danger signals for when to stop as I really don't know anything about the physical aspects of piano playing, especially not in growing children.

I use this in yoga as well - does it feel like good pain or bad pain? Good pain FOR ME is a dull ache that wasn't there before. It may be intense but never sharp. It goes away after repeated sessions of the same movement and usually means that I have grown in strength, flexibility or both. Bad pain FOR ME is sharp and sudden. There are certain points where I know that the bad pain means that I have pulled a tendon. These are at the base of the fingers, usually the tendon that joins the little finger to the wrist. I may also get it in the thumb tendon.

With both yoga and piano, my approach is slow and steady. I don't try to do hours and hours of either a day. I aim to work on one thing in particular in each session and I have a small rotating list of things I want to work on. I also think about how I will measure the progress - usually these are things not perceptible to the outsider. I am measuring progress in months rather than in weeks, but I think for me that's the best thing since I'm in no hurry.

[jch48]

With a view to working on voicing and properly learning things I've gone back to the Rachmaninov preludes in D and G-flat from Op23.
Google brought up the following **humorous** link which has been in the forums before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifKKlhYF53w

the fun starts 1 minute in when the assistant appears

[corenfa]

Teacher, knowing about my fear of octaves, has assigned me the Rachmaninov Prelude Op. 3 No 2. She said she wants me to learn how to play octaves and how to play proper fortissimo. So we have been working on the physical mechanism of playing octaves.

My left hand has a wider span than my right at the moment. I have a comfortable octave and stretched ninth in the left, and stretched octave in the right. I have always played octaves in the right hand with a very low wrist so that I can use my fingertips to get the edge of the keys; she wants me to have the entire hand on top of the keyboard.

I thought this was downright impossible but somehow following the guidelines she has given me, it is becoming possible. I have been trying to "force" my hand wider, and that (she tells me) leads to stiffness in the thumb. Whereas if I very carefully relax everything and just move the thumb that bit further away from the palm - it happens. It doesn't happen easily and I can feel the stretch but I know my body well enough to know that this is OK; there is no sharp pain, which is my danger signal to stop.

It's like magic, it's just a mind trick. Nothing physically has changed. Obviously my hands are still the same size and I will never be able to play a tenth, but that's not what I'm after. I am a long way off from being able to do it fast and/or forte, but at the moment I am settling for being able to do it at all.

[corenfa]

Teacher says I can eventually learn the Chopin A-flat Polonaise (Op 53 / Heroic) but that I will have to work through the Chopin Etudes in a particular sequence, which roughly will start with

#9
#13 or 14
#21

I get the idea that these are meant to be worked on simultaneously not in order- these are the first set of the sequence, I think. I presume I will be told the next set after I've got this set down (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

She said again that hand size was not an issue for me, so long as I was prepared to do the work. She said that when she was in conservatory, there were women as small as or smaller than me who played these pieces, and they had no problems because they were trained well. She didn't mince words - it'll take at least a year to learn the above to the point where I can start learning the Polonaise.

I'd been working on that Rachmaninov prelude anyway (mentioned in the last post) for the last month or so, and it's going very slowly because we are using it as a means of learning technique rather than a piece in itself (though I am sure we will get to that). I've been told to practise the big chords in the right hand playing only the top 2 notes, then just touching the bottom of the octave with thumb. This is one way she says that my stretch will improve.

There have certainly been effects; I had a go at Chopin Etude #21 (Butterfly) last night, slowly, and I can play the octaves in the right hand. A month ago I wouldn't have been able to.

[corenfa]

Have been working on the Chopin Butterfly Etude (Op 25 No 9) for three weeks with some odd modifications, which have had a significant effect.

The main modification is to play the right hand groups of semiquavers as follows - 2 semiquavers, shake wrist, 2 consecutive octaves. Point of this is to relax the hand before the octaves. This is not how it is articulated in the score - teacher said that if I practise this way, I am learning the right movements, and later on we will "tone down" the amount of movement so that the relaxation will remain.

It works- I can now get through the piece at half speed (sigh...) with no pain, where three weeks ago, it hurt.

Something's definitely happened in my brain, new neurons or something, because now I can think "make my right hand wider" and it happens. Three weeks ago it didn't feel possible. I don't think it's just down to stretching - it actually feels like I can control it more consciously than I used to.

I've gone a bit mad with playing octaves now, I tried all these things that I used not to be able to manage (Rondo Alla Turca, Pictures At An Exhibition, to name a couple). What's that they say, when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Very Sane Tom]

Any tips / advice on good exercises/ when not to do it/ how to avoid dangerous or risky ones would be appreciated!

Yes - don't try ANYTHING unless you really know what you are doing. An incorrect exercise (or one done wrong) can cause injury that can take months to heal, or can even destroy any possibility of becoming an exceptional pianist.

And you will not learn enough to know what you are doing from posts on this thread, unless someone writes enough posts on the subject to fill a book.

Normal practice of the pieces selected by his teacher is likely to give him all the "stretching" that he needs at this stage.

If his small hands are a problem, and special exercises are needed, leave it to his teacher, who ought to have studied this aspect of ldeveloping piano-playing skills in enough depth.

[corenfa]

...
If his small hands are a problem, and special exercises are needed, leave it to his teacher, who ought to have studied this aspect of ldeveloping piano-playing skills in enough depth.

I second this - my teacher has studied this aspect of piano technique (amongst others) and with this knowledge has helped me work out a programme of exercises that have had good results. It is taking a long time, but that is almost reassuring, because nothing hurts unreasonably (good sort of hurt, like muscles being developed kind of thing) so I must be doing OK.