Further tips needed for beginner violinist Options

[Mini_mo]

My daughter started learning the violin at school in September and when she started I asked for some forum advice to help her (as I don't have a clue!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

All the advice has been really helpful and I try and help her as much as possible. What I am finding that is different to the piano (my instrument and her 1st instrument) is that a lot of work is needed to get the notes sounding right.

She is using finger position 3 so is having to do quite a lot of finger movement and changing and some notes sound quite screechy going from one note to another but most generally sound fairly good.

I have suggested to my daughter that it might help if she worked bar by bar to get the inotation right and sounding as good as I think she is capable of (seeing as she is a beginner).

So my question is really is it better for her to practice playing through the pieces from start to finish at this stage and not worry too much about screeching and the odd area of incorrect inotation, or better to work bar by bar to get the piece as perfect as she can? I don't want her to be trying to aim for total perfection at this stage as it will just put her off the whole learning process.

Thanks

[primrose]

So my question is really is it better for her to practice playing through the pieces from start to finish at this stage and not worry too much about screeching and the odd area of incorrect inotation, or better to work bar by bar to get the piece as perfect as she can?

Personally I'd say that you need a mix of the two. You can't make the whole piece musical without practising the whole piece. But if a particular bar is a problem then you need to practise it in isolation. (If every bar is a problem then you need to practise every bar in isolation, but in that case maybe the piece is too hard.)

I don't think there's really any difference between the piano and the violin in this respect, though the problems may be different. But I do think poor intonation needs to be corrected asap. You can't really be musical if you're out of tune.

[BadStrad]

She is using finger position 3 so is having to do quite a lot of finger movement and changing and some notes sound quite screechy going from one note to another but most generally sound fairly good.

What do you mean by position 3? Is that say a G on the D string, or D on the A string? I'm guessing you don't mean third position (when the hand is moved further from the pegs). Sorry that's not much help, but I was curious - I hadn't come across the term before and I'm always interested in how people learn/are taught.

[Mini_mo]

Personally I'd say that you need a mix of the two. You can't make the whole piece musical without practising the whole piece. But if a particular bar is a problem then you need to practise it in isolation. (If every bar is a problem then you need to practise every bar in isolation, but in that case maybe the piece is too hard.)

I don't think there's really any difference between the piano and the violin in this respect, though the problems may be different. But I do think poor intonation needs to be corrected asap. You can't really be musical if you're out of tune.

Thanks for this - my daughter sometimes moans when I correct her on the intonation but it sounds like I should!

[Mini_mo]

She is using finger position 3 so is having to do quite a lot of finger movement and changing and some notes sound quite screechy going from one note to another but most generally sound fairly good.

What do you mean by position 3? Is that say a G on the D string, or D on the A string? I'm guessing you don't mean third position (when the hand is moved further from the pegs). Sorry that's not much help, but I was curious - I hadn't come across the term before and I'm always interested in how people learn/are taught.

I have just got out Fiddle time joggers and my mistake - firstly it is 2nd finger not 3rd. So G string will become a B. It's just that I don't really understand the terminology!

My daughter learns through school and whilst I could ask the teacher I feel that she would spend most of the lesson reading my notes which is why I have asked here instead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

The reason why I asked whether it was better to learn bar by bar was whether it was better to ensure consistency when depressing strings, ie if you play a sequence of 3 notes that need different finger positions it would be better to train your fingers to get the right intonation each time if working on little sections? Then obviously overall playing as well. I assume the odd bit of screeching is understandable!

I just want to ensure I am not expecting too much at this stage.

The piece she is learning is called "The wind that Shakes the barley" by Reel and is an easy accompaniment part. It's for a school concert in March and unfortunately due to various illnesses and holiday's she has only played it with the teacher once over 3 weeks ago, so I am trying to help her (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Thanks

[primrose]

The reason why I asked whether it was better to learn bar by bar was whether it was better to ensure consistency when depressing strings, ie if you play a sequence of 3 notes that need different finger positions it would be better to train your fingers to get the right intonation each time if working on little sections? Then obviously overall playing as well. I assume the odd bit of screeching is understandable!

I just want to ensure I am not expecting too much at this stage.

I'm only a learner myself, so I can't really say. But the very first words in the very first book of Sevcik exercises, which are part of many a string player's staple diet, are:

"REMEMBER! The first consideration in string playing is the attainment of perfect intonation |Sevcik's italics]. This can only be achieved by the most intense and concentrated listening (not superficial listening). Never pass a note that is the slightest degree out of tune."

That's asking rather a lot in the case of a beginner (!), but it does suggest that you're right to be picking it up even at this stage. Just remember that staying in tune on the violin is really, really hard. It's easy for a pianist to criticise! Does your daughter have tapes on the neck to show where the fingers go? Some beginners find this helpful, though some teachers disapprove.

[jojo]

Does your daughter have tapes on the neck to show where the fingers go? Some beginners find this helpful, though some teachers disapprove.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
you are right Primrose, the DREADED tapes can be a primary cause for a heated 'battleground' much like the dreaded 'shoulder rest' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)
they can cause HUGE arguments to no end in sight, some teachers swear by them and some hate them with a vengeance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)
so Mini Mo better stick to what her daughter's teacher started her off with I think (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

[aesir22]

Does your daughter have tapes on the neck to show where the fingers go? Some beginners find this helpful, though some teachers disapprove.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
you are right Primrose, the DREADED tapes can be a primary cause for a heated 'battleground' much like the dreaded 'shoulder rest' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)
they can cause HUGE arguments to no end in sight, some teachers swear by them and some hate them with a vengeance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)
so Mini Mo better stick to what her daughter's teacher started her off with I think (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

I am torn on this point. On the one hand I want the tape on my violin as I never seem to get intonation right. When I do it is pure luck! But on the other hand I want to learn to hear the correct note instead of see it. I had wondered if I should put them on for a few weeks and practice just loads of long slow bows on each note so I can get a feel for how they sound lol

[Blackbird77]

I notice in your post that you play the piano. Is it possible that you can play the piece alongside your daughter to help with intonation? (apologies if you're already doing this).

Also, are there any bars that your daughter is finding difficult e.g. rhythm, intonation, finger positions? As it may be worth, with the advice of her teacher, focusing on these first.

[primrose]

I am torn on this point. On the one hand I want the tape on my violin as I never seem to get intonation right. When I do it is pure luck! But on the other hand I want to learn to hear the correct note instead of see it. I had wondered if I should put them on for a few weeks and practice just loads of long slow bows on each note so I can get a feel for how they sound lol

My own feeling, for what it's worth, is that sooner or later you have to start correcting your intonation by ear rather than sight, so it might as well be sooner rather than later. Also, the finger won't always be in precisely the same place for a particular note, because the precise pitch you need will depend on what other notes are being played; so tapes are bound to be a bit misleading anyway. They may be helpful for complete beginners, for a while, but if you've already started without them I think it's probably best not to start using them now.

[aesir22]

I am torn on this point. On the one hand I want the tape on my violin as I never seem to get intonation right. When I do it is pure luck! But on the other hand I want to learn to hear the correct note instead of see it. I had wondered if I should put them on for a few weeks and practice just loads of long slow bows on each note so I can get a feel for how they sound lol

My own feeling, for what it's worth, is that sooner or later you have to start correcting your intonation by ear rather than sight, so it might as well be sooner rather than later. Also, the finger won't always be in precisely the same place for a particular note, because the precise pitch you need will depend on what other notes are being played; so tapes are bound to be a bit misleading anyway. They may be helpful for complete beginners, for a while, but if you've already started without them I think it's probably best not to start using them now.

Problem is when I practice at home I don't always know if I am wrong or not. When I went three weeks without a lesson, I had it so wrong - my third finger was nearly a semitone too sharp! I can tell when I am way too flat or sharp, but I struggle with the subtle bits, which my teacher corrects in lessons.

Think I am just gonna practice slow bows on all the notes and hope for the best til my next lesson lol!

[BadStrad]

I have just got out Fiddle time joggers and my mistake - firstly it is 2nd finger not 3rd. So G string will become a B. It's just that I don't really understand the terminology!

Thanks for that. I had a look round the net and found this link http://www.violinonline.com/fingerboard_chart.htm and this one http://www.violinonline.com/fingeringchart.htm they look useful in terms of what each finger position pattern means. So as I read it the finger pattern 0-1-23-4 used for FTJoggers (according to a certain internet shopping site) uses the 1,2,3,4 positions, not the "low" positions.

The reason why I asked whether it was better to learn bar by bar was whether it was better to ensure consistency when depressing strings, ie if you play a sequence of 3 notes that need different finger positions it would be better to train your fingers to get the right intonation each time if working on little sections? Then obviously overall playing as well. I assume the odd bit of screeching is understandable!

Hmm tough. I know a nine year old who works bar by bar until each one is perfect, she's at a music school and plays for 4 - 5 hours a day (after lessons). Another little girl I know will only concentrate on troublesome bars once she's got the whole of the basic tune in her head, so she knows which bits are throwing out her playing. So could you extrapolate from your daughter's preferred method for her piano playing and see which way she likes to work?

[Mini_mo]

Hi thanks everyone. The advice is great thanks.

In answer to you questions, no my daughter has no bands to indicate where to press down so as Aesir says intonation can be hit and miss.

I think I have good hearing and can hear if the intonation isnt right even by a very slight amount, which probably doesn't help, so I think that it probably is important for her to work on small sections where she struggles with the correct intonation.

Playing the tune on the piano is so helpful as you then get an idea of the correct intonation (providing your piano is in tune of course!) When my daughter struggles with a particular section I will play it on the piano and and she plays along side until she matches the sound.

I also make sure the violin is tuned correctly before each practice.

Thanks everyone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)